Knifesense and Nonsense, Pt. 1*-- Carbon Steel & Serious Cooks

billmarsano

New member
Carbon Steel and SeriousCooks


The Internet containeth all things, both sense and nonsense. When it comes to knives, there’s plenty of the latter. A recent outbreak is “Why Serious Cooks Use Carbon Steel Knives.,”

Really--using stainless means you’re not a serious cook?

Serious cook—how to define that? Someone who boldly goes beyond PB&J, ramen and mac and cheese? Someone whose “famous meatloaf” contains a secret ingredient? Well now we know. It’s a cook pledged to carbon-steel knives.

After a double dose of non-too-subtle salesmanship, in this case re the author’s favorite Japanese blade, a Misono--plus almost all others), the author, Chef Carbon, if you will, gets down to cases.

He begins wistfully (“I've been quietly in love with carbon-steel knives for a long time, and after a lot of thought, I've decided that it's time to share it with the world. . . . For a long time, I lived in denial of how strong my feelings were”). Then with a sneer he unleashes his inner snob: “If you just want to get dinner on the table, not think about your knives beyond whether they're just barely sharp enough to blunder their way through an onion, and not worry if you mistreat them to no end, then yeah, stick with stainless.”

Whoa!

Anthony Bourdain, Gordon Ramsay, Wolfgang Puck, Ina Garten, Nigella Lawson, David Chang and many others—have they ever been so briskly dismissed?

Chef Carbon claims as absolutes carbon steel’s advantages: harder than stainless; easier to sharpen; gets sharper and stays sharper. But then, perhaps sensing thin ice, he hedges: “metal experts [might] say I'm wrong . . . . I know I'm generalizing here—but of all the kitchen knives I've ever worked with, carbon steel knives sharpen way more easily.” (And how he loves whetstones and sharpening!)

Rhapsodizing about sharpness, Chef Carbon brags that his favorite blade sliced through his cut-resistant bag and into his finger. As for “downside: carbon steel is more fragile. . . . more brittle [and] more likely to chip if you drop it or toss it into the dishwasher”, the rust, the stains, the reactions with acidic foods? “I actually think carbon steel's reactivity is a great thing. Why? Because it forces the cook to treat the blade with some real damn respect.”

He admits, almost boasts of abusing stainless knives, dumping them in the sink to be buried among plates and bowls. But his Misono? “Not for one nanosecond . . . I handle my carbon steel blade like a samurai treats his sword. It's all reverence and care, 100% of the time because the knife demands it”. . . . Caring for a carbon-steel knife requires ritual-like devotion.” A massage (with mineral or tsubaki oil), “is how I say goodnight to my favorite blade.”

Clearly, Chef Carbon is besotted mainly with the rites and ceremonies of coddling his Misono. But being high priest of his own cult is no excuse for treating the rest of us as if we are frivolous bumpkins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Pt. 1: is that a threat or a promise? We scribble, you decide.
 

QSis

Grill Master
Staff member
Gold Site Supporter
My first serious knife was a high carbon steel slicer, because some TV chef (Jeff Smith, maybe?) waxed poetic about its virtues. I still have the knife, with its patina, but the rest of my knives are stainless. I don't notice a difference in the slicing quality between the two steels.

Lee
 

billmarsano

New member
Agreed, Lee. I have a couple of carbon-steel blades. One I keep out of sentiment (it was my first knife, bought 1964) the I bought out of ignorance in the '80s. Each has its patina--of Film of Filth--and I don't use either anymore.
 

QSis

Grill Master
Staff member
Gold Site Supporter
Agreed, Lee. I have a couple of carbon-steel blades. One I keep out of sentiment (it was my first knife, bought 1964) the I bought out of ignorance in the '80s. Each has its patina--of Film of Filth--and I don't use either anymore.

Bill, we have a fairly strict anti-spam policy here, and several NCT members are wondering about your motives for posting your articles on so many food forums. Looks kinda suspicious.

Care to comment?

Lee
 

billmarsano

New member
Bill, we have a fairly strict anti-spam policy here, and several NCT members are wondering about your motives for posting your articles on so many food forums. Looks kinda suspicious.

Care to comment?

Lee
My sole object is to distribute my posts to as many people as possible, on the theory that no single site reaches as many as several sites do. I have no financial interest in any of the things or products I write about. I have thought about posting on FaceBook, but that site has too general an audience, while the sites I post to at least reach those who are directly interested in the subjects I treat with. I'm not clear on what spam has to do with my posts, nor what suspicions have arisen, but I assure that I have no unsavory motives. I admit that if someone reading my posts were to write back and say they think my stuff is terrific and that I shoukd have a site of my own, which they woukld sponsor, I would be pleased, thrilled even. But incredulous.
 

ChowderMan

Pizza Chef
Super Site Supporter
was no one else curious?

"Until early 2009 the long-time Wine and Spirits Editor of United Airlines’ Hemispheres, Bill Marsano has won a James Beard medal and a handful of other awards for his writing on wine, spirits and travel in Hemispheres, Condé Nast Traveler and “a host,” as they say, other titles. He is that rarest and proudest of birds, the New Yorker native-born, but he travels to Italy whenever he can get away with it and is plotting to when he can’t. / / etc etc"
 

billmarsano

New member
My sole object is to distribute my posts to as many people as possible, on the theory that no single site reaches as many as several sites do. I have no financial interest in any of the things or products I write about. I have thought about posting on FaceBook, but that site has too general an audience, while the sites I post to at least reach those who are directly interested in the subjects I treat with. I'm not clear on what spam has to do with my posts, nor what suspicions have arisen, but I assure that I have no unsavory motives. I admit that if someone reading my posts were to write back and say they think my stuff is terrific and that I shoukd have a site of my own, which they woukld sponsor, I would be pleased, thrilled even. But incredulous.

was no one else curious?

"Until early 2009 the long-time Wine and Spirits Editor of United Airlines’ Hemispheres, Bill Marsano has won a James Beard medal and a handful of other awards for his writing on wine, spirits and travel in Hemispheres, Condé Nast Traveler and “a host,” as they say, other titles. He is that rarest and proudest of birds, the New Yorker native-born, but he travels to Italy whenever he can get away with it and is plotting to when he can’t. / / etc etc"
Not so far. But time will tell.
 

ChowderMan

Pizza Chef
Super Site Supporter
there's actually a whole lotta' stuff that does not get mentioned in the various rants and raves SS vs carbon steel.

history...
stainless is known to be 'softer' than (some) carbon steels. then came 'metallurgy'

high end Japanese knives are known for their super-harness/edge retention/four day sharpening routines.
and yes, they chip more readily due to the hardness/brittle characteristics...

"Sabatier" is today no longer well defined - but French knives of that "fame" are usually carbon steel - and their hardness varies all over the map. one should not assume any quality assets just because it is labeled/sold as Sabatier.

the debate over rusting, patina, etc. vs 'carefree' stainless is imho a total red herring. people who are serious cooks are not going to leave their knives laying the the shed for years to rust . . .

resulting in....
talking hardness and chipping on carbon steel, one must specify what kind of knife is being discussed - celebrities rarely do such detail, they're just paid to do the advertising.

people who sharpen knives generally agree carbon steel takes more time and effort - leaving aside the extremers who use their kitchen knives to shave.... and also those with electric sharpeners . . . .

modern stainless steels have vastly improved hardness and edge retention.
I switched to an EdgePro setup - which solves the mega-issue of 'the right angle' and keeping the angle consistent over the length.
I steel the knives on routine use, they maintain their edges just fine.
my kids, not inclined to an EdgePro, use the Chad Ward 'convex' sharpening on fine grit abrasive sheets - multiple times have related their friends/acquaintances are amazed at how sharp their knives are. oh, I also taught them to use a steel....

bottom line . . .
a kitchen without sharp knives is simply due to lack of care and sharpening.
carbon steel or stainless plays a very small role, if any, in letting the knives reach that condition.
 

QSis

Grill Master
Staff member
Gold Site Supporter
was no one else curious?

"Until early 2009 the long-time Wine and Spirits Editor of United Airlines’ Hemispheres, Bill Marsano has won a James Beard medal and a handful of other awards for his writing on wine, spirits and travel in Hemispheres, Condé Nast Traveler and “a host,” as they say, other titles. He is that rarest and proudest of birds, the New Yorker native-born, but he travels to Italy whenever he can get away with it and is plotting to when he can’t. / / etc etc"

Yes, I looked Bill up and found the same info. you posted, Chowder. Thank you for posting.

Lee
 

Shermie

Well-known member
Site Supporter
About the only thing that I have that's carbon steel is probably the meat cleaver. But now, even they are made from stainless steel! I can make pretty good Mac & Cheese & I'm a pretty good cook, having been cooking since I was 9 years old All my other knives are stainless steel. I'm not here to fight or argue & whoever said that good cooks only use carbon steel knives, that would be or remain debatable. I just want to say that it would be the choice of the cook to make that decision as to whether or not the knife that they may use to chop, dice, slice, filet or bone meat from the bone. It's their choice or prerogative. :whistling:
Meat Cleaver..jpg
 

billmarsano

New member
there's actually a whole lotta' stuff that does not get mentioned in the various rants and raves SS vs carbon steel.

history...
stainless is known to be 'softer' than (some) carbon steels. then came 'metallurgy'

high end Japanese knives are known for their super-harness/edge retention/four day sharpening routines.
and yes, they chip more readily due to the hardness/brittle characteristics...

"Sabatier" is today no longer well defined - but French knives of that "fame" are usually carbon steel - and their hardness varies all over the map. one should not assume any quality assets just because it is labeled/sold as Sabatier.

the debate over rusting, patina, etc. vs 'carefree' stainless is imho a total red herring. people who are serious cooks are not going to leave their knives laying the the shed for years to rust . . .

resulting in....
talking hardness and chipping on carbon steel, one must specify what kind of knife is being discussed - celebrities rarely do such detail, they're just paid to do the advertising.

people who sharpen knives generally agree carbon steel takes more time and effort - leaving aside the extremers who use their kitchen knives to shave.... and also those with electric sharpeners . . . .

modern stainless steels have vastly improved hardness and edge retention.
I switched to an EdgePro setup - which solves the mega-issue of 'the right angle' and keeping the angle consistent over the length.
I steel the knives on routine use, they maintain their edges just fine.
my kids, not inclined to an EdgePro, use the Chad Ward 'convex' sharpening on fine grit abrasive sheets - multiple times have related their friends/acquaintances are amazed at how sharp their knives are. oh, I also taught them to use a steel....

bottom line . . .
a kitchen without sharp knives is simply due to lack of care and sharpening.
carbon steel or stainless plays a very small role, if any, in letting the knives reach that condition.
ChowderMan: I think Sabatier is for rent, so to say. That it, anyone can license use of the name and put it on his product(s), just as in the 1970s Yves St Laurent sold his YSL logo by the yard. Or meter. Some cutlers distinguish themselves from competitors by adding to Sabatier a name of their own, such as "K,' Rowoco Elephant" and others..
 
Last edited:

billmarsano

New member
there's actually a whole lotta' stuff that does not get mentioned in the various rants and raves SS vs carbon steel.

history...
stainless is known to be 'softer' than (some) carbon steels. then came 'metallurgy'

high end Japanese knives are known for their super-harness/edge retention/four day sharpening routines.
and yes, they chip more readily due to the hardness/brittle characteristics...

"Sabatier" is today no longer well defined - but French knives of that "fame" are usually carbon steel - and their hardness varies all over the map. one should not assume any quality assets just because it is labeled/sold as Sabatier.

the debate over rusting, patina, etc. vs 'carefree' stainless is imho a total red herring. people who are serious cooks are not going to leave their knives laying the the shed for years to rust . . .

resulting in....
talking hardness and chipping on carbon steel, one must specify what kind of knife is being discussed - celebrities rarely do such detail, they're just paid to do the advertising.

people who sharpen knives generally agree carbon steel takes more time and effort - leaving aside the extremers who use their kitchen knives to shave.... and also those with electric sharpeners . . . .

modern stainless steels have vastly improved hardness and edge retention.
I switched to an EdgePro setup - which solves the mega-issue of 'the right angle' and keeping the angle consistent over the length.
I steel the knives on routine use, they maintain their edges just fine.
my kids, not inclined to an EdgePro, use the Chad Ward 'convex' sharpening on fine grit abrasive sheets - multiple times have related their friends/acquaintances are amazed at how sharp their knives are. oh, I also taught them to use a steel....

bottom line . . .
a kitchen without sharp knives is simply due to lack of care and sharpening.
carbon steel or stainless plays a very small role, if any, in letting the knives reach that condition.
The rust problem isn't a red herring at all, at least according to carbon-steel advocates, who suggests the stuff will rust before your very eyes. Certainly the impression given by Chef Carbon, who delights to retail his efforts to baby his Misono.
 

QSis

Grill Master
Staff member
Gold Site Supporter
The rust problem isn't a red herring at all, at least according to carbon-steel advocates, who suggests the stuff will rust before your very eyes. Certainly the impression given by Chef Carbon, who delights to retail his efforts to baby his Misono.
This Sabatier slicer was my first "good" knife purchase. It requires more attention than a stainless blade, needing to be immediately washed and very well dried after use. But it holds a razor edge a long time and I love it!

Even with that, there are a couple of rust spots that I just scrub off.

Lee

IMG_20240425_135344.jpg
 
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