Need some cake help

UnConundrum

UnConundrum

New member
I uncovered one of my mother's recipe caches and tried her "famous" marble cake. Now, I bake a lot of bread, but never a standard cake before. I found this cake to be on the dry side. What makes a cake dry? Not enough butter? Batter worked too long? Over baked (this is my favorite. Recipe called for 350 for 50 minutes for a standard rectangular cake pan... seems long to me?

The cake did crack a little on the top.

I'd really appreciate some cake wisdom :)

Oh yeah, the recipe and some pictures are HERE
 
I'm not the world's greatest expert on baking, but I listened to my mother and I can make pretty good cake. A few comments:

1. CRITICAL: Make sure your butter and sugar are extremely well creamed -- that means beating at medium-high to high speed for about 5 minutes; you will see a very definite change in the appearance and texture when it's "creamed" properly.

2. CRITICAL: Measure your ingredients carefully; making a cake is like chemistry, and ratios matter; it's especially important to measure your flour accurately, and you should probably sift it in the measuring cup, then level with a knife; do not pack it into the cup; too much flour and your cake will be dry; too little and it won't hold together properly. Make sure the flour is reasonably fresh.

3. CRITICAL: Mix your flour and other dry ingredients together, then add to the creamed butter about 1/3 at a time; mix a low speed or by hand until most of the flour is incorporated; then add another 1/3 and repeat; then the last 1/3; do not over mix! Be sure to scrape the bowl frequently with a rubber or silicone spatula to mix everything together. Quit as soon as the batter is evenly colored, or a little before that even. Again, DO NOT OVER MIX!

4. Make sure you're using the correct size of pan specified in the recipe or your baking time will vary; grease and flour the pan, or use the spray baking stuff (oil and flour mixture); make sure the oven temperature is reasonably accurate -- test with an oven thermometer if you're not sure.

5. Baking time varies with the temperature of the oven (few are exact), the size and composition of the pan, altitude, and the weather (temperature and humidity can affect things). Remember that baking times stated in the recipe are merely an approximation. In general, a cake is done as soon as it begins to pull away from the sides of the pan, although the toothpick test is always advisable.

6. Take the cake out of the oven as soon as it's done and put the pan on a rack to cool. Depending on the type of cake, you MAY want to remove it from the pan after 10 to 20 minutes.

HTH
 
I have made a similar cake before. When one creams the butter, one doesn't want to liquify it. Also, with cake--if one overbeats the batter it toughens the cake. Finally, don't just go by time--check to see if the cake is done before 50 minutes is up and be sure that your oven temperature is correct. However, knowing you--I doubt it is your oven.
 
When I started messing with cakes, I had the very same problem, and actually thought the very same things you addressed were the issue, but after much :bonk: I reached out to those in the know!

Many of you here know Laurie Biere (LPBiere) form "that other" forum, and she gave me a piece of advice that made all the difference in the world. When she was in pastry school, she said they were taught to not rely on "timers" when baking a cake. She told me that once its in the oven, when you can smell it, you know its time to start watching it. Keep an eye on the sides-when it starts to pull away, its getting close, and to test for doneness, lightly press it in the middle with your finger. When it springs back, its done-take it out of the oven!!

I know the toothpick method works, but I just hate poking holes in my cakes!

Since that day, I have never even used the timer. I'll get an idea of how long it should back from the recipe, but I am always checking it around the halfway point. Even the best ovens temps can vary, and the type of pans used etc all make a difference. A good example of this is that two days ago I made a loaf of bannana bread for my grandson, and the recipe called for baking it @350 degrees for 55-75 minutes. It was done perfectly in 43 minutes! So it just goes to show you.....

Also, another tip Laurie gave me was that when baking cakes, seek out "professional recipes" you can recognize them because quantities of ingredients are always given in weights (grams/ounces as opposed to cups etc) digital kitchen scales are relatively cheap-under 20$, and they are useful for so many things in the kitchen, so they really are "multi-taskers"!
 
Thanks everyone. Obviously, the flour is an issue. I weighed everything as I recreated the recipe, but I have no idea how my mother came up with 3 cups. Dip and scrape, fluff and level.... measure after sifting? Here, I think she measured before sifting, but not sure which method.
 
smoke king said:
Also, another tip Laurie gave me was that when baking cakes, seek out "professional recipes" you can recognize them because quantities of ingredients are always given in weights (grams/ounces as opposed to cups etc) digital kitchen scales are relatively cheap-under 20$, and they are useful for so many things in the kitchen, so they really are "multi-taskers"!
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very good advice smoke king... I convert a lot of my recipes to grams, when making the product it is faster and comes out the same every time. There are some many ways to measure flour. But the weight always stays the same. once you get it right make a note of the weight for the future.
 
The single biggest cause of dry cakes is overbaking. 75% of the time, it's just been in the oven too long. You always hear about the toothpick test for doneness, but there are signs much earlier than that. By the time a toothpick it totally clean, the cake is dry. There is a big difference between 'clean toothpick' and a toothpick with a moist crumb attached. What you don't want is gooey batter, but crumb is good.

The very first sign you'll notice of a cake approaching doneness is smell. You'll suddenly be overcome with the wonderful aroma of your flavor. This means that you should start paying attention to your cake. You are nearing the last 5-15 minutes, depending on the recipe and pan size.

Next you'll notice that the cake has risen beautifully; it doesn't dip or flatten in the middle. (It may later, but not yet. - that's another issue) Then you observe the edges of the pan. A cake is done when the edges ever-so-slightly begin to pull away from the sides of the pan.

You'll notice, that I haven't even touched the cake yet. Learning to rely on your other senses instead of a toothpick will take you a long way to perfecting your baking. Finally, touch the center lightly, it should still feel tender, but spring back immediately.

I never bother with a toothpick, because I want my crumb moist.

If you weigh the ingredients, then watch for early signs of doneness, you'll probably get just the cake you remember. I doubt it's the flour, if you weighed it. If anything you'd have less flour because the old 'dip & scoop' method our grandmothers used packed more flour into the cup, not less.

If it's an ingredient issue, the more likely culprit is the egg or the fat. Too much egg white dries a cake. Older recipes were often written with medium eggs in mind, never bigger than 'large'. Today we often use extra large & jumbo. Depending on the ratios, this can dry a cake.

The other issue is the fat. Fat keeps a cake moist (surprisingly, water doesn't). Make sure you're using the correct fat called for in the recipe. Butter is partially water, and doesn't substitute 1 for 1 with shortening. Margarines are even worse.

If you've now made everything exactly as the recipe, and it's still dry, I'd increase the fat a little bit or remove one egg white, or swap out 2 egg whites for one whole egg.
 
I've seen way too many debates about how much a cup of flour weighs - I just don't even go there anymore.

problem:
(1) there are no exact definitions of pastry/cake/AP/bread/etc. flours.
(2) the density of flour is not the same for every type, every variant or every miller.
(3) humidity / moisture content makes a difference.
and those are 'in addition' to the (should be obvious) problems about
packed
sifted
scooped
etc

result:
there is no universal constant that enables the statement
"A cup of flour weighs ....."

Guts gots it write.

one needs to establish one's own personal values based on one's preferences of flour(s) and storage methods.

and then keep it a secret because regardless of what number one comes up with _somebody_ will tell one how wrong one is.
 
Is there a family member who may remember whether it was sift before or after measuring and whether she spooned or scooped the flour and leveled it off?
 
Oh, I'm sorry to mislead Susan, she's still living :) 89 years old, but been known to lie about her recipes :) Tonight she tells me, she scooped the flour, sifted, and then measured again. Guess I caught her in a giving mood LOL. I asked her about the eggs and she says that "In those days, we didn't have sizes." <BG> We discussed it and I'm going to try 5 x-large egg white instead of 6.

And some more revelations! She mixed less of the chocolate half, which would increase the intensity of the chocolate taste. My son was complaining that the two parts didn't have much taste difference. Guess he was right. Also, she used the toothpick test, but revealed that the pick should come out with crumbs on it, not clean!. Finally, she said to make the melted chocolate first and let it cool down while you make the rest of the cake. LOL, I felt like I was cross examining her!

Thanks everyone for the suggestions... Now if I could only finish eating this cake, I could run another test :)
 
One hint -- melting chocolate in a double boiler only makes for more cleanup. Do it in a glass measuring cup in the microwave -- just watch it closely, do it on medium power, stir it every 30 seconds, and take it out before it's completely melted -- it will finish melting in the cup, especially if you stir it, and it won't be so hot that you have to let it sit for 10 minutes before you can use it. I find that 4 ounces of baking chocolate squares and a stick of butter are melted in about a minute.
 
Another revelation. She called back and told me I have to use cake flour! Guess I should have figured that, but remember, I'm a bread baker. I used KA all purpose. I'll bet the next one will be darn close!
 
I love your mom; she sounds adorable! Yes, when one marbles a cake, one should not be very thorough or one will lose the chocolate flavor--Maida Heatter describes to alternate spoons of the two batters and then cut through with a knife. It is a neat trick.

Your mom is of the generation that use to measure flour with an old yahrzeit glass--it was very big and on the jewish food mailing list it was described as holding a cup of flour. I wonder if she did that. You can ask and you might get a twinkle in her eye.

About the eggs--our eggs have been downsized. I spoke to a catering friend and he said large eggs are not as large as they use to be and that I had noticed correctly--so with old recipes, I often use extra large for large and jumbos for extra large eggs. I would not change the number.

I still think that one has to look to see whether a cake is done rather than just time it but the temp of your oven has to be correct. Did she say that it should pull slightly away from the pan and spring back when touched or did she just tell you what she did about the toothpick?

I am tickled pink by this story. Thanks for sharing this question with us.
 
The cake flour would also make the cake moister, softer than all purpose. I had found a recipe in my paternal grandma's handwriting and asked a friend who worked at restaurant hospitality magazine to answer my questions for me. She had the kitchen experiment so that I knew what size pan and what temperature to use. It was very sweet of her. This grandma died when I was ten and it meant a lot to my dad that I was able to make her cake. I just had to create my own frosting for it.
 
Was this a bakery recipe? If so, you might want to compare it to the marble cake in Secrets of a Jewish Baker. There was a batter that Jewish bakers varied to make all different sorts of things. It would be fun to compare the two.
 
PieSusan said:
I love your mom; she sounds adorable! Yes, when one marbles a cake, one should not be very thorough or one will lose the chocolate flavor--Maida Heatter describes to alternate spoons of the two batters and then cut through with a knife. It is a neat trick.
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You know, I discovered Maida Heatter vis Susan in this very forum about a year or so ago. If you are serious about desserts, her books are a wealth of solid, reliable information. I too highly reccomend them. And bonus, you can often find them in "thrift" stores, (et al).

Hmmmm, that reminds me, Susan, did I ever karma you up for the tip? :chef:
 
Much, MUCH better. Thanks to everyone for their help....


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Just one thing, this cake fell somewhat. Looked great when unmolded, but... do they always fall?
 

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Cakes often shrink a bit after being removed from the oven. That is, they lose a bit of their puffiness as they cool. But that's not what's generally meant by "falling," which refers to a near total collapse of the cake back into the pan. That obviously didn't happen with your cake, with looks perfect to me.

BTW, what changes did you make that helped?
 
Well, actually, it was nice and domed at one point, then, later, I'd say it dropped down an inch and a half, definitely below the edges. If you look closely to the bottom of the slice of cake, you can see two areas that are "missing" cake. they're not missing from the side of the slice, but the top.
 
Based on that description, my first guess is that it may have been a tad underdone.

That's where the "touch test" described by PieSusan and others comes in -- lightly touch the center of the top of the cake with your index or middle finger, pressing it down slightly, then quickly pull it away (it'll be hot, so you won't want to let your finger linger). When it's done, the cake will spring back almost all the way almost instantly; if your finger leaves much of a dent, give the cake a couple of additional minutes in the oven.
 
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Depending on the recipe, cakes can fall a bit when cooling. This often happens with sponge cakes especially. If the cake fell way below the pan, I would be concerned but if it were flush with the pan, that is normal.
 
Nope, it fell deeper than the top of the pan, and before it came out of the oven.... Next attempt is Saturday.... woe is me. We're celebrating Father's Day on Saturday so my Brother can have Sunday. My mother said that the marble cake was my father's favorite, so I'm giving it a go again, and she'll be the judge. Will be interesting to see my father's reaction. He's 92, and not altogether with it...

In all sincerity, taste and texture wise, the last attempt nailed it. Just don't know why it fell... Maybe it still needed to come out sooner. I'll try the "finger touch" test Saturday. Thanks for all the advice :)
 
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