When is a recipe yours

[UnConundrum]

I was wondering what everyone else thinks about edits to a recipe and at what point you no longer have to give credit to the source. I often massage a recipe changing the ingredients and the method.

According to copyright law, you can't copyright a formula, but the procedure (instructions) can be, and a compilation of formulas can be. So, if you changed the ingredients to metric measures, but copy the procedure, you should give credit. So, technically, if I take someone's recipe, and adapt it to using a ThermoMix, I've changed the instructions, and I'm ok. But that seems to bother me. I think that if I've changed an ingredient or two, or how much used, and I alter the procedure, such as mixing all the wets together first, while the original specifically did one ingredient at a time, and I add pictures, it's pretty well mine, even though I based it on someone else's recipe.

What do you think?

 

[Lefty]

From the US Copyright Office

Mere listings of ingredients as in recipes, formulas, compounds, or prescriptions are not subject to copyright protection. However, when a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection.
Protection under the copyright law (title 17 of the United States Code, section 102) extends only to “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form (a copy). “Original” means merely that the author produced the work by his own intellectual effort, as distinguished from copying an existing work. Copyright protection may extend to a description, explanation, or illustration, assuming that the requirements of the copyright law are met.
For information on how to register, see SL-35. For further information on copyright, deposit requirements, and registration procedures, see Circular 1, Copyright Basics. The deposit requirements depend on whether the work has been published at the time of registration:

• If the work is unpublished, one complete copy
• If the work was first published in the United States on or after January 1, 1978, two complete copies of the best edition
• If the work was first published in the United States before January 1, 1978, two complete copies as first published
• If the work was first published outside the United States, one complete copy of the work as first published
• If the work is a contribution to a collective work, and published after January 1, 1978, one complete copy of the best edition of the collective work or a photocopy of the contribution itself as it was published in the collective work

Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to names, titles, short phrases, ideas, systems, or methods.
*NOTE: Copyright Office fees are subject to change. For current fees, please check the Copyright Office website, write the Copyright Office, or call (202) 707-3000.
FL-122, Revised June 2008

Source http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html

 

[PieSusan]

I am very cautious about these kinds of things. Unless, I can fall under one of the exceptions, I always think the better practise is to give credit to the original author. In that way, you are always covered.

 

[Calicolady]

I alway consider when making the recipe the tweeks I do in the ingredients and making, cooking, baking; ie, time procedure, equipment. And make and share it with others who enjoy it.
If enjoyed after the above, it's mine! If not, it's whoever wants it.
That may be simple, but it's mine!

 

[joec]

I often use others recipes as well as copy their methods. However with that said I make changes which I note to the sides or add some things to the process or leave them out. When I copy a recipe I also save the person's name if given at the time or the source. Now to me recipes like sex has been with us forever and though you might copy them they are never exactly the same regardless. Now I know with my art work I just figured if I put on a web site as far as I'm concerned it is public domain unlike putting it in a published book for example. Also in the process of painting, I've often copied master's painting however I sign my name to them as no two painters will do everything the same no matter how close one follows the original. There really is nothing original for the most part in cooking as many methods will give the same results. With that said I rarely post recipes unless I leaned them, modified them and use my own method of doing it.

 

[PieSusan]

joec, you will always have common law copyright in your artwork. The problem with relying on the common law copyright lies in defending the work as your own. It can be done, it is just a bit harder.

 

[joec]

I really don't care about the copyright laws with regards to what I post of mine on the Internet since one can really have no control world wide. Copyright laws are different in every country and some countries, China for example has no problem with using someone else stuff to do knock offs. I have actually had people email me want something I did as a screen saver but wanted me to put their name on it and remove mine. I'm easy I did it in most cases as it wasn't a big deal to me. I don't do it for a living nor would I. The starving artist life isn't for me, thank you very much.

 

[Lefty]

Here is a different way to think about this, when is a recipe not yours? If someone took one of my original recipes and changes a few things around and added their own twist, I no longer think of it as mine. My mother who was a great influence in my cooking never met a recipe she didn't customize. I saw a recipe on here calling for grape tomatoes the other day and I happen to think they are a tad sweet for my taste so I would sub plum tomatos and maybe add olives because I am an olive freak. I would think of this as my variation of a standard recipe.

 

[S.Shepherd]

I have the same problem..sort of, as a knifemaker.

A maker comes up with a design, and literally in a few hours people are making copies of it ! Sure, you can get it pantented, but then it's up to you to foot the bill to make them stop.

Gladly, there's a number of up who believe we should police our own and protect "intellectual property"

 

[UnConundrum]

I tend to agree with Lefty, especially when I post something on my website and add a bunch of pictures, usually expanding on the instructions. On the other hand, I once posted someone else's recipe WITH ACKNOWLEDGEMENT, and caught holly hell from her. "Imagine my surprise when I was browsing your site and found MY recipe!!!" Personally, I'm glad when people play with my recipes and change things to meet their tastes...

 

[Mama]

... Personally, I'm glad when people play with my recipes and change things to meet their tastes...

I agree! It's quite a compliment.

 

[DownByTheRiverSide]

I tend to agree with Lefty, especially when I post something on my website and add a bunch of pictures, usually expanding on the instructions. On the other hand, I once posted someone else's recipe WITH ACKNOWLEDGEMENT, and caught holly hell from her. "Imagine my surprise when I was browsing your site and found MY recipe!!!" Personally, I'm glad when people play with my recipes and change things to meet their tastes...

I also am honored when you like my recipe, and I certainly dont think anyone should stay strictly with my recipe anymore than I stay with theirs exactly.

My take on that is if it is That Darn Precious to them and they are that protective of it, then why are they putting it out public???

I have a good friend and she is a Fabulous Cook, and some recipes she will gladly share, and some others, about 25% of them, she considers her "Signature Recipes" and would die before she would part with the recipe.

That approach seems silly and selfish to me (though I would never say that to her!) and so I never ask for a recipe from her. I think food is about goodness and sharing pleasure, so I will share anything. If my friend makes something I like I compliment it, she will often say, "I'll be glad to send the recipe to you." I usually say, "Please do." Otherwise, I never mention it again.

People and their recipes .... sometimes they are odd about them.

 

[DownByTheRiverSide]

I agree! It's quite a compliment.

Speaking of that ..... Mama, I made your Spinach/Parmesean Stuffed Chicken Breasts last week and they were quite enjoyable. Thanks for Sharing !!

(But then, I changed it a bit .... oh, dear, now is it still Mama's or has it become mine .... hehe ....)

 

[PieSusan]

I tend to agree with Lefty, especially when I post something on my website and add a bunch of pictures, usually expanding on the instructions. On the other hand, I once posted someone else's recipe WITH ACKNOWLEDGEMENT, and caught holly hell from her. "Imagine my surprise when I was browsing your site and found MY recipe!!!" Personally, I'm glad when people play with my recipes and change things to meet their tastes...

She was seeking permission for her recipe to be copied.

 

[Adillo303]

Susan, publishing and giving credit does not imply permission of the author and therefore could be problematic. Stating used with the permission of, would be proper as long as you indeed had said permission.

Also according to the copyqwright office, unless the copyright is registered no action can be initiated.

AC

 

[PieSusan]

Susan, publishing and giving credit does not imply permission of the author and therefore could be problematic. Stating used with the permission of, would be proper as long as you indeed had said permission.

Also according to the copyqwright office, unless the copyright is registered no action can be initiated.

AC

AC, there are exceptions to copyright law that allows one to use copyrightable material: satire, and for educational purposes, are two examples.

I did not say that merely acknowledging an author allows one to copy a recipe. I don't know where you got that idea.

What I did say is that I believe it is the better practise to acknowledge the originator of a recipe when one has rewritten the directions. One cannot copyright the list of ingredients but one can copyright one's directions to make the recipe. It is why I say a recipe is based on so and so's.

I hope that clarifies the issue for you.

 

[Mama]

Speaking of that ..... Mama, I made your Spinach/Parmesean Stuffed Chicken Breasts last week and they were quite enjoyable. Thanks for Sharing !!

(But then, I changed it a bit .... oh, dear, now is it still Mama's or has it become mine .... hehe ....)

You're welcome! I'm just glad you enjoyed it!

 

[Adillo303]

Susan, I would have had this posted sooner, I typed it all out on my Blackberry and someone called me and blew it out.

Anyway - Spoken with nothing but kindness in my voice - I was not criticizing, taking issue with, or calling you out in any way, or anyone else for that matter. I went to the US Copyright office website and read their text as it has to do with recipes. It says just what many, maybe enven you, sorry I have not read them all, have posted. Ingredients cannot be copywitten, method can. If someone posts a recipe and mentions that is came from someone else, they are opening the proverbial can of worms. No one, but, the original author can tell if the procedure is changed. Everyone else must guess. I like your naming people in the subject line o fyour recipes. I feel that it adds color and character. It speaks of lots of family and friends. by mentioning a name you are "coloring" the recipe as someone else's. Not one of us can tell if it is verbatim or you have rewritten it. Hence the "Can of worms".

Now what can happen as the result of a copyright violation, anyone's. The US patent office is also fairly explicit here. For legal action to be taken the copyright must be registered and a fee paid. I seriously doubt that that is the case for anyone here. If the owner of the copyright is offended they can contact the OP and ask that it either be changed or removed. Really nothing more can happen, unless you can cite a point of law that I have not posted. Certainly possible, after all, I am a computer nered and only fix computers for attorneys.

If I wrote anything that offended, I am sorry, that was and is not the intent.

Andy C

 

[Maverick2272]

Re: From the US Copyright Office

Mere listings of ingredients as in recipes, formulas, compounds, or prescriptions are not subject to copyright protection. However, when a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection.
Protection under the copyright law (title 17 of the United States Code, section 102) extends only to “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form (a copy). “Original” means merely that the author produced the work by his own intellectual effort, as distinguished from copying an existing work. Copyright protection may extend to a description, explanation, or illustration, assuming that the requirements of the copyright law are met.
For information on how to register, see SL-35. For further information on copyright, deposit requirements, and registration procedures, see Circular 1, Copyright Basics. The deposit requirements depend on whether the work has been published at the time of registration:

• If the work is unpublished, one complete copy
• If the work was first published in the United States on or after January 1, 1978, two complete copies of the best edition
• If the work was first published in the United States before January 1, 1978, two complete copies as first published
• If the work was first published outside the United States, one complete copy of the work as first published
• If the work is a contribution to a collective work, and published after January 1, 1978, one complete copy of the best edition of the collective work or a photocopy of the contribution itself as it was published in the collective work

Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to names, titles, short phrases, ideas, systems, or methods.
*NOTE: Copyright Office fees are subject to change. For current fees, please check the Copyright Office website, write the Copyright Office, or call (202) 707-3000.
FL-122, Revised June 2008

Source http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html

Yea that about sums it up for me, LOL. The simple rule is that if you list the ingredients out and then write in your own words how to make it you are just fine.
The problem with 'giving credit' by saying this is so-and-so's recipe is that giving credit is not the same as having permission. One should not confuse the two.

 

[UnConundrum]

She was seeking permission for her recipe to be copied.

I guess I agree with you, "after the fact." And I think my actions and reaction would be different if I copied it out of a book, but she had already published the recipe on a public site (eGullet) not even her own site. Basically I wanted to save the recipe, so I reproduced it on my site giving her credit. Isn't it being reproduced every time someone visits the post on eGullet? Oh well. I offered to take it down... in a huff she said "no, leave it there" which I did...

 

[DownByTheRiverSide]

I guess I agree with you, "after the fact." And I think my actions and reaction would be different if I copied it out of a book, but she had already published the recipe on a public site (eGullet) not even her own site. Basically I wanted to save the recipe, so I reproduced it on my site giving her credit. Isn't it being reproduced every time someone visits the post on eGullet? Oh well. I offered to take it down... in a huff she said "no, leave it there" which I did...

Sounds like what she wanted and needed was some attention .... which she successfully created. Sometimes things are not what they seem.

 

[UnConundrum]

I have a good friend and she is a Fabulous Cook, and some recipes she will gladly share, and some others, about 25% of them, she considers her "Signature Recipes" and would die before she would part with the recipe.

That approach seems silly and selfish to me

While I'm always willing to share recipes, I think I can understand someone's need to protect something they consider special. Years ago, my mother contributed to a community cookbook, and left an ingredient or two out of every recipe. I tease her relentlessly to this day about that.

Of all my recipes, there's only one for a yeast raised coffee cake that I don't publish, now for two reasons. First it is a derivative of a cake my mother was known for (yes, published with missing ingredients that I figured out) and when I did post it for a short time, my brother flipped out yelling that it was a family heirloom. No one else can make the cake. Others (including my SIL have tried and failed), so I took it down. Since then, I've made it a few BBQ competitions for the "anything goes" category, baking it on my BGE at the competitions. I've done rather well with it, and feel a recipe used in competition is properly protected. Some day, if I stop competing, I'll probably publish it again, and not tell my brother

 

[PieSusan]

Be careful and read the fine print when you submit a recipe for competition. Often you are signing away your right to the recipe to compete.

 

[UnConundrum]

I have to bake it, not submit it. But there are some where they want to publish the recipes after the fact; I don't participate in them. The ones I do participate in have some very well known and professional competitors. They all have their "secrets" and none would show if winning meant giving up their recipe.

 

[PieSusan]

UnConundrum, just to clarify, I can freely use the name of the folks who gave me and my mom certain recipes without any concern because the recipe was shared with me and they are deceased. I like to include their name to keep their memory alive and share their specialties with others. I smile when I think of certain women and make their recipes. It takes me back to a time when I was younger and they were alive. I like to think it serves two purposes. One, certain recipes are not lost and two, it gives a bit of immorality to these great friends of my mom's who are gone.

 

[BamsBBQ]

this whole thing is a bit confusing at times.. here's what i mean...

simple rib rub
3 cups brown sugar
1 cup salt
1 tbl garlic powder
1 tbl onion powder
1 tbl black pepper
1/2 tsp cayenne pepper

mix all ingredients together.

If i change the ingredients to this

2 1/2 cups brown sugar
3/4 cup salt
2 tbl garlic powder
1 tbl onion powder
1 tbl black pepper
1/2 tsp cayenne pepper

mix all ingredients together.

does this become my recipe or is it copyright infringement?

oh and i have a few recipes that i just wont share. One is my bbq sauce that i serve when i BBQ. another is my pork injection for pork butts and the last is my rib rub. i will give basic ingredients but i have a few special ingredients that go into each.

 

[Sass Muffin]

It's mine if I made it up off the top of my head, or if it was passed down by a family member.

 

[Maverick2272]

Well, that is why you keep some things to yourself, isn't it? This stuff is actually hard to copyright, per the US Patent Office, not the other way around.
My rule of thumb is if you haven't made it, don't post it but you can post a link to it and talk about it.
If you have made a recipe, feel free to tell us how you made it and what you used to make it, and use the name of the recipe to tell us what it is. For instance "Buffalo Wings with Blue Cheese Dipping Sauce". As you can see, straight to the point not claiming it as yours just posting what you made.
As for changing it around, depends on how much. If you can see it came from another source and has just been tweaked to your personal taste, then just say so. Don't take credit as if you invented the recipe, that is all. For instance, "This is my take on a recipe posted by BAM called XXX. I changed the following and this is what I did."
If you have played with it and changed it so much you can barely tell what it started out as, then that is all yours name it and post it as your unique recipe. For instance, "this is Mav's DO Easy Meat n Beans".

 

[Keltin]

this whole thing is a bit confusing at times.. here's what i mean...

simple rib rub
3 cups brown sugar
1 cup salt
1 tbl garlic powder
1 tbl onion powder
1 tbl black pepper
1/2 tsp cayenne pepper

mix all ingredients together.

If i change the ingredients to this

2 1/2 cups brown sugar
3/4 cup salt
2 tbl garlic powder
1 tbl onion powder
1 tbl black pepper
1/2 tsp cayenne pepper

mix all ingredients together.

does this become my recipe or is it copyright infringement?

oh and i have a few recipes that i just wont share. One is my bbq sauce that i serve when i BBQ. another is my pork injection for pork butts and the last is my rib rub. i will give basic ingredients but i have a few special ingredients that go into each.

Copyright law says you can only copyright the instruction on how to make it and not the ingredients. But, you also changed the ingredients, so that one is wholly yours.

 

[Maverick2272]

Well, that is why you keep some things to yourself, isn't it? This stuff is actually hard to copyright, per the US Patent Office, not the other way around. So you keep recipes you want to be your secret or are a part of your business in secret, like KFC does.
My rule of thumb is if you haven't made it, don't post it but you can post a link to it and talk about it.
If you have made a recipe, feel free to tell us how you made it and what you used to make it, and use the name of the recipe to tell us what it is. For instance "Buffalo Wings with Blue Cheese Dipping Sauce". As you can see, straight to the point not claiming it as yours just posting what you made.
As for changing it around, depends on how much. If you can see it came from another source and has just been tweaked to your personal taste, then just say so. Don't take credit as if you invented the recipe, that is all. For instance, "This is my take on a recipe posted by BAM called XXX. I changed the following and this is what I did."
If you have played with it and changed it so much you can barely tell what it started out as, then that is all yours name it and post it as your unique recipe. For instance, "this is Mav's DO Easy Meat n Beans".

Edit: And of course if you came up with it off the top of your head, or 'developed' it with practice, then of course it is yours so you don't even have to worry about any of this!