Using a "Steel"

Keltin

New member
Gold Site Supporter
There are several types of steels to use with your knife. Typically it’s said that steels only hone or straighten and edge, but never sharpen. But I have heard of coarse steels that remove metal and thus sharpen to a certain degree?

Here’s an interesting video.

So, let’s talk about steels. Do you use them? If so, do you agree they do not sharpen but instead only hone? What’s your preference, iron, ceramic, other? How do you use it…..fast and furious in hand, or stable with point on table? Let’s discuss this!
 

Mama

Queen of Cornbread
Site Supporter
I don't know much about knives but dh taught me how to use a steel to hone my knives before each use and then every so often he uses a stone to sharpen them. I hold the steel with the point on the table and then run the knife down it 5 or 6 times on each side kind of like I'm trying to "slice" the steel. I'm not coordinated enough to do the "chef" thing.
 

BamsBBQ

Ni pedo
Site Supporter
for the amount of knives i have and the amount of chopping(cutting) i do, i am very ineffecient when it comes to using a hone.. :blush:

good thing i have my mom who gives my knives a razor blade sharpness:clap:
 

Maverick2272

Stewed Monkey
Super Site Supporter
I use the steel on a regular basis, then sharpen as well about once a week. Seems to keep a nice edge on it.
To define that, works for me but would probably tick a chef off LOL!
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
Ripped from you know where....



Quote:
Originally Posted by RPCookin
Even an inexpensive knife can have a reasonable lifespan between sharpenings with proper use of a steel.


I use a steel that came with a block set 30 years ago to poke holes for planting seeds in the garden. Don't use them for knives if you can avoid it. Use a fine ceramic steel like the Idahone or a HandAmerican Borosilicate steel. I steel "steel" will rip up the edge as can easlily be seen with a loupe. Not good, and definitely not sharp.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RPCookin
You're saying that using a "steel" steel is wrong???? Gee, it seems to have worked for me for a good many years. It also works for a LOT of professionals, including the instructors at the cooking school classes I attended some years ago. They even have a professional sharpener come in to teach proper knife maintenance, and HE used a standard steel.

So I'm justifiably puzzled by your assertions.


You can see for yourself. Sharpen a knife on stones up to 4k grit, better yet, 8 or 10k if you have one. Look at the edge with a 20x loupe. It's nice and smooth. Now steel it with a 1200 grit ceramic steel and look at it again. Roughed up a little (very very little) but still sharp and serviceable. Now steel it with a steel steel and look again. There are some micro chips and lots of tiny steel hairs.

It had been along time since I've even thought about such simple concepts so I actually took the time to screw up a very nice edge to reprove it to myself. I took a thirty year old Chicago Cutlery slicer with steel comparable to modern day German forged knives. It had been sharpened and polished with a 10 degree secondary bevel and a 15 degree primary bevel and polished to 4k grit. It was sharper than anything you can buy by a long shot. To test the edge I used a combination of visuals with the 20x loupe and the Murray Carter 3 finger test. First I used a 1200 grit Idahone ceramic steel. The result was as always, toothy, and very sharp with almost no changes visually. Then I used a steel steel and the resulting edge was only moderately sharp and contained the steel hairs as described above. The 3 finger test screamed dull dull DULL. I once again used the ceramic steel and the edge came right back to being sharp and toothy with no microchips and no steel hairs.

A steel steel is nothing more than a common hardened tool steel round file!

You tell me that the steel steel makes your knives sharp and that's the way the "experts" teach it at culinary schools. The experts are teaching a way to put an edge on a knife that will cut but just barely. I can tell you with no reservations that you have probably never seen a really sharp knife. You can do some independent research. There are two dedicated kitchen cutlery knife sites, here and here. Both forums are populated by many Chefs who also happen to be knife guys. Please go to them, join up, and ask them if a steel steel will make your knives sharp. Also, don't forget to ask them their opinions on the knife sharpening classes at culinary schools.

Buzz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodweed of the North
when I purchased a 3-piece set of Chicago Cutlery knives, they came with an accompanying steel. The steel is harder than many that I've seen, and is smooth. Instructions stated that when my knives became dull, I could back steel them, then steel forward again and return the knives to a reasonable sharpness. Now those old knives hold an edge very well, but are hard to sharpen. Back-steeling proved to be a quick way to at least partially restore the edge. I've used the technique for years and my knives go through tomatoes, and virtually everything I cut or slice with ease.


I'll be darned. I've never seen a set come with a "smooth" steel. They are very appropriate for soft to medium hard edges. These edges tend to roll with use. That is, the final .5 mm or so will be pushed slightly to the side and the knife will no longer cut as well. The smooth steel rectifies this by gently pushing or pulling the bent portion back into alignment and the cutting ability is regained. This can be accomplished several times between actual sharpening sessions. Eventually the metal becomes fatigued and falls apart in use and you'll know it by its inability to recover. Then its back to the stones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodweed of the North
On the other hand, I have two crock-sticks (ceramic rods) that are very smooth. After sharpening with my Smith's Arkansas stone, If I then try to finish them with the crock-stick, they actually seem to be less sharp. But if I very lightly steel them, and I mean barely touching the metal, the edge becomes much more keen.


The finest ceramic rod is 1200 grit. If you sharpen with a 2k stone followed by the rod you are dulling the edge you just completed. Don't use a rod until you need it as it is not part of the sharpening sequence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodweed of the North
I have heard that finishing a knife edge with a strop that has been rubbed with jeweler's rouge will put a proper convex curve on the edge, making it stronger, less resistant to fold-over, and give the ultimate sharpness. Leather belts suitable for making a strop seem hard to find in my town.


Convexing: This technique makes a very strong edge. The caveat is that compared to a straight bevel, the rounded portion makes the blade fatter near the edge and increases friction thus lessoning cutting ability somewhat. Straight bevel weakness is compensated for by adding a micro bevel which adds strength. It's a little hard to explain without pictures so if you need the references I'll dig them up for you.

Pure straight bevels are only possible using mechanical devices such as the EdgePro. Free handing on stones imparts a convex edge to one degree or another because it is impossible to maintain the exact same angle at all times on the stones.

Strops: Nothing finishes an edge like a strop. The difference is mind boggling and must be seen to be believed.

A simple strop is as easy as gluing a thin, smooth piece of leather onto a 2x4. You can load it with any non greasy or non pumice laden media you want. Your suggestion of jeweler's rouge works. I prefer higher quality control and use only one particular brand of .5 micron liquid and powdered chromium oxide because the particle size is consistent. .5 micron equals about 50k grit so you can see what a high degree of polish it imparts.

When I go all out I finish with a 10k stone, then strop with .5 chromium oxide followed by stropping with .25 diamond spray. This is overkill for sure but extreme sharpening is a hobby of mine so I push the limits on a regular basis.

I've done some experiments using several different types of steels, ie. carbon, stainless, and even semi stainless tool steels. I sharpened them and used 2k as my final stone. I finished with chromium oxide stropping. In every case the increase in cutting ability was beyond description. If you're interested in this I'd be happy to post my sources.

Buzz

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPCookin

Since all I'm after is a functional knife, and I seem to be able to get that without spending a great deal of time at it, I'm happy with my methods. I'm not, nor will I ever be a professional. I also don't plan to use my knives for shaving... Gillette takes care of that for me.


Each to his own and whatever works for you. I fully realize that I am the exception but that's what works for me. Like I said in the previous post, "This is overkill for sure but extreme sharpening is a hobby of mine so I push the limits on a regular basis."

This is what I do. For anyone who want truly sharp knives, just ask me how.
__________________
Buzz
 

FryBoy

New member
For many years I used the Wusthof grooved steel that I bought with my Wusthof knives, and it does a good job of keeping the blades in shape between sharpenings.

However, over the past few years I've purchased several Japanese kitchen knives. Concerned about proper care for these knives, I recently got an Idahone 12" Fine Ceramic Rod, which seems to do a better job than the steel.
 

Keltin

New member
Gold Site Supporter
I'll be darned. I've never seen a set come with a "smooth" steel. They are very appropriate for soft to medium hard edges. These edges tend to roll with use. That is, the final .5 mm or so will be pushed slightly to the side and the knife will no longer cut as well. The smooth steel rectifies this by gently pushing or pulling the bent portion back into alignment and the cutting ability is regained. This can be accomplished several times between actual sharpening sessions. Eventually the metal becomes fatigued and falls apart in use and you'll know it by its inability to recover. Then its back to the stones.

So, you would agree that using a steel, albeit a smooth or ceramic version is good between sharpenings? For the average cook that is?
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
So, you would agree that using a steel, albeit a smooth or ceramic version is good between sharpenings? For the average cook that is?

Yes. On softer steels such as German or French (forged or otherwise) either a glass smooth or ceramic steel is fine. These edges tend to roll. Steeling pushes or pulls the edge back into alignment with the width of the blade and you're good to go. With hard steels such as Japanese a smooth steel is ineffective and a fine grit ceramic rod is required.

It is possible to use a grooved steel but an extremely light touch is required. This type of steel is designed to remove metal and a knife's longevity will be considerably shortened.
 

FryBoy

New member
FWIW, here's an excerpt from the EdgePro Apex User's Manual:
Finishing the edge—Sharpening steels--After removing the BURR, you can use the knife just as it comes off the machine. However, if you finish it with a ceramic steel, the edge will be a smoother and stronger. DO NOT USE A REGULAR (BUTCHER) STEEL. This tool is too coarse and will damage the edge. Do not ceramic a polished edge. Stand the ceramic steel vertically against the counter. Starting at the heel of the knife and the top of the ceramic, draw the knife toward you, and let it slide down the ceramic. Angle the blade away from the ceramic at a few degrees more than the angle you sharpened at. DO NOT USE PRESSURE. Just let the edge lightly touch the steel. This way you will not roll (damage) the edge if you do not have exactly the right angle. Use the ceramic steel to touch up the edge between sharpening.
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
FWIW, here's an excerpt from the EdgePro Apex User's Manual:

And it's just plain wrong. This technique takes a fine grit edge and makes it more coarse. I have no frickn' idea why EdgePro CEO Ben Dale can even think that way.

Edit: I'm referring to the ceramic bit.
 

FryBoy

New member
Dale even includes a ceramic rod in the all the Pro kits and the Apex 2 and Apex 3 kits: CLICK ME and ME.

It's strange how something as simple as this can generate such controversy among knowledgeable people. Buzz, you fight it out with Ben and tell me who wins so I'll know what to do!
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
Dale even includes a small ceramic rod in the Apex 2 and Apex 3 kits: CLICK ME.

It's strange how something as simple as this can generate such controversy among knowledgeable people. Buzz, you fight it out with Ben and tell me who wins so I'll know what to do!

Ben Dale is the ONLY professional sharpener I've ever seen who uses this technique. It's faulty. It makes the edge less sharp. Ceramic rods restore edges when they lose some of their cutting power. They are NOT part of the sharpening process. I don't fight it out with anybody because my knives are as sharp as they get and if you saw my Takayuki thread you already know it's true. I like The EdgePro when I want an exact angle and it gets followed with a strop, nothing else.
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
what grit is the rod? 1200?

the edgepro has tapes that are way above that...why use the rod?

It is 1200. It's an Idahone "fine". As to your third question, I think he's (Ben Dale) off his rocker. If I were to finish an edge with the ceramic steel I'd be going from a 50,000 grit chromium oxide polish to 1200 grit scratches. :lol:
 

FryBoy

New member
Well, he does say in the manual NOT to use the rod on a POLISHED edge. Is that consistent with what you're saying?
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
Well, he does say in the manual NOT to use the rod on a POLISHED edge. Is that consistent with what you're saying?

Yes and no. First of all Ben Dale says to use the ceramic rod after the stones so I assume he doesn't recommend it after using his polishing tapes. Would you agree?

The EP stones are based on US grit standards, ie. sand paper. The Idahone 1200 is Japanese standard. When Ben Dale wrote the instructions and made his DVD the finest grit stone they offered was 600 which equals 2000 Japanese. Presently the finest EP stone is 1000 which equals about 4000 Japanese. You can see that even going from the lowly 600 grit EP stone to the 1200 Idahone is a step down, not up. I hope this helps. I know you're new to J knives and high end sharpening - seen you on the other forums. There is a lot to learn. No need to rush.

GritComparison.jpg
 

FryBoy

New member
It's starting to make sense to me. Sort of!

The Apex 1 & 2 kits include a 220 grit and a 320 grit stone; the Apex 3 adds 120, 600, and 1000 grit stones.

Query: after using a relatively coarse stone such as the 320, does it make sense to use the 1200 grit rod?

Or do you feel that should be reserved only for touch ups after the knife has been used and starts to dull a bit?

Thanks for all the help and advice.
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
Note: I just viewed some info that says the Idahone is ANSI, not Japanese. If true, it is about equal to the EP 800 so would add nothing and would take away from the EP 1000.
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
It's starting to make sense to me. Sort of!

The Apex 1 & 2 kits include a 220 grit and a 320 grit stone; the Apex 3 adds 120, 600, and 1000 grit stones.

Query: after using a relatively coarse stone such as the 320, does it make sense to use the 1200 grit rod?

Or do you feel that should be reserved only for touch ups after the knife has been used and starts to dull a bit?

Thanks for all the help and advice.

If the final stone is the 320 the Idahone will indeed improve the edge. I'm not sure I explained myself well enough above because I go to a minimum of 4k Japanese water stones with even the worst of knives. Thereafter I use the Idahone for touch ups only.

My thought process is that on my better knives the initial edges are razor sharp. Cutting anything, even celery, will take that very fine edge away fairly rapidly plus any time the edge touches a cutting board of any kind further degrades the edge. This happens in the first ten minutes of cutting. At this point the edge is still very sharp and is usable for a few more hours. At this point I can sense the blade is no longer performing as well as I would like and this is where I use the ceramic rod. The resulting edge has the Murray Carter Three Finger test feel as referenced in an earlier post. This edge will last several more hours until another honing is required. The process can be repeated a few times but eventually the edge degrades to the point where a complete resharpening is required. For a home cook like me I can get (I think) about a year between sharpenings. I say "I think" because I have a house full of knives and I rotate them so I'm giving my best guess. Also, the type of steel and its Rockwell hardness makes a huge difference. Like I said, there is a lot to learn.

I learned by trial and (many) errors and I don't recommend it as the price tag can equal that of a new car if you're not careful. It's better to pay close attention to the major players at KF and Fred's at Foodie for good info. That way you can make an educated decision and if you're lucky you can buy just one knife for a lifetime. There are several that fill the bill.

Buzz
 
Top