and about tipping....

No, this isn't about how much you tip or what makes you tip (or not tip)...

It's about the people who make their living on those tips. In another thread we got around to how little compensation a waiter gets from the restaurant, relying mostly on his good charm and good luck in getting a generous table. In this new economy, it's almost understandable why people have reduced the amount they do tip because the meal itself is becoming such a luxury.

So....my question is, do you think, as a society, we'd ever be able to move away from tipping and just pay for the service, or have it included in the actual price of the service? When the meal is as expensive as it is already, would you be willing to pay a bit more and not have to worry about the tip?

I don't necessarily believe that without the tip to lord over waiters you'd get shoddy service. Most people want to take pride in their work...but having to kiss ass to be reasonably compensated has got to suck.

Would you pay more?

I already tip 20% and sometimes more. I feel sorry for the waitstaff as is but I don't see what you suggest happening anytime soon.

I honestly DO think it would result in a lesser service because much too often I have received horrible service and that is WITH the expectation of getting a tip!
Exp. just the day before yesterday, I was out to a medium priced restaurant 9-25 dollar meals...and the waitress had not asked a single time if we needed anything or was our meal ok...and to top it off as she brought our bill she dropped it off with out a word, picked it up again with out a word, when we asked for boxes her reply was "yeah, you'll have to wait a minute" and as she brought back our bill with our copy of the receipt she dropped it off and walked away without again a single word or even a smile let alone a thankyou for coming or have a nice day! It wasn't busy, there was only two other tables she was waiting on. So I can't help but wonder, if she had not further incentive of our customer satisfaction, how would our service have been THEN??
I have many other prime examples of very shoddy service, but I am not really the type to complain and ask for a mgr, instead they will see either my displeasure in the minimal tip or the fact that I would not be returning any time soon!

PieSusan said:

I already tip 20% and sometimes more. I feel sorry for the waitstaff as is but I don't see what you suggest happening anytime soon.

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But would you be willing to change..? Willing to just have the tip always included in the price?

Deelady said:

I honestly DO think it would result in a lesser service because much too often I have received horrible service and that is WITH the expectation of getting a tip!
Exp. just the day before yesterday, I was out to a medium priced restaurant 9-25 dollar meals...and the waitress had not asked a single time if we needed anything or was our meal ok...and to top it off as she brought our bill she dropped it off with out a word, picked it up again with out a word, when we asked for boxes her reply was "yeah, you'll have to wait a minute" and as she brought back our bill with our copy of the receipt she dropped it off and walked away without again a single word or even a smile let alone a thankyou for coming or have a nice day! It wasn't busy, there was only two other tables she was waiting on. So I can't help but wonder, if she had not further incentive of our customer satisfaction, how would our service have been THEN??
I have many other prime examples of very shoddy service, but I am not really the type to complain and ask for a mgr, instead they will see either my displeasure in the minimal tip or the fact that I would not be returning any time soon!

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I get your disatisfaction...happens all the time to all of us. I think that employees who were paid a fair wage would be subjected to the same expectations as any employee. In other words, if enough customers complained about the service they received they'd soon find themselves unemployed.

Deelady said:

I honestly DO think it would result in a lesser service because much too often I have received horrible service and that is WITH the expectation of getting a tip!
Exp. just the day before yesterday, I was out to a medium priced restaurant 9-25 dollar meals...and the waitress had not asked a single time if we needed anything or was our meal ok...and to top it off as she brought our bill she dropped it off with out a word, picked it up again with out a word, when we asked for boxes her reply was "yeah, you'll have to wait a minute" and as she brought back our bill with our copy of the receipt she dropped it off and walked away without again a single word or even a smile let alone a thankyou for coming or have a nice day! It wasn't busy, there was only two other tables she was waiting on. So I can't help but wonder, if she had not further incentive of our customer satisfaction, how would our service have been THEN??
I have many other prime examples of very shoddy service, but I am not really the type to complain and ask for a mgr, instead they will see either my displeasure in the minimal tip or the fact that I would not be returning any time soon!

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and that calls for NO TIP... customer services is key, i have left a big tip b4 even when the food was crappy because i still got excellent service.

having the tip included in the price of the meal is not a good idea. when i get good service, i tip accordingly, when i get great food, i tip the cook(yes they can get tips,i have been there..lol)

i started out in the food service business as a waiter and i always made good tips. i went to being a cook and yes i made good tips doing that as well.

VeraBlue said:

But would you be willing to change..? Willing to just have the tip always included in the price?

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Depending on the restaurant I go to, some already tack on a gratuity. However, I have heard tell that the waitstaff does not get all that money either. I have been around restaurant boards with waitstaff, chefs, line cooks, dishwashers, bartenders. etc.

Many restaurants we go to do already automatically include the tip into the total, and if we were impressed with our server we usually add onto that tip, as a further show of appreciation, but there have also been times where we were annoyed with the fact that the tip was included because the service was just horrendous! What do you do then?? Bitch and complain...? It's not our style, but it does put a damper on our evening.

VeraBlue said:

No, this isn't about how much you tip or what makes you tip (or not tip)...

It's about the people who make their living on those tips. In another thread we got around to how little compensation a waiter gets from the restaurant, relying mostly on his good charm and good luck in getting a generous table. In this new economy, it's almost understandable why people have reduced the amount they do tip because the meal itself is becoming such a luxury.

So....my question is, do you think, as a society, we'd ever be able to move away from tipping and just pay for the service, or have it included in the actual price of the service? When the meal is as expensive as it is already, would you be willing to pay a bit more and not have to worry about the tip?

I don't necessarily believe that without the tip to lord over waiters you'd get shoddy service. Most people want to take pride in their work...but having to kiss ass to be reasonably compensated has got to suck.

Would you pay more?

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There are several restaurants in town here that automatically assess a 15% gratuity for your server. It’s automatically added to your bill. Period.

But I always leave an extra “tip” anyway, especially if they are good.

Deelady said:

Many restaurants we go to do already automatically include the tip into the total, and if we were impressed with our server we usually add onto that tip, as a further show of appreciation, but there have also been times where we were annoyed with the fact that the tip was included because the service was just horrendous! What do you do then?? Bitch and complain...? It's not our style, but it does put a damper on our evening.

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Wow! Look at that, we posted the same thing!!

Karma for you!!

I have not noticed a difference in service when gratuity is included.

I think most waitstaff would not like it as in a busy place if they hustle they can make pretty good money off tips. Now that tips are more aggressively taxed they have probably lost some of their luster.

I generally tip high as I know it is a big part of the income and a tough job. I really only tip low when service is truly truly horrible... and not just incompetent that I have tolerance for but down out rude I will withhold tipping.

I think it is pretty ingrained in the culture of dining out on all ends though and would be tough to get rid of.

VeraBlue said:

No, this isn't about how much you tip or what makes you tip (or not tip)...

It's about the people who make their living on those tips. In another thread we got around to how little compensation a waiter gets from the restaurant, relying mostly on his good charm and good luck in getting a generous table. In this new economy, it's almost understandable why people have reduced the amount they do tip because the meal itself is becoming such a luxury.

So....my question is, do you think, as a society, we'd ever be able to move away from tipping and just pay for the service, or have it included in the actual price of the service? When the meal is as expensive as it is already, would you be willing to pay a bit more and not have to worry about the tip?

I don't necessarily believe that without the tip to lord over waiters you'd get shoddy service. Most people want to take pride in their work...but having to kiss ass to be reasonably compensated has got to suck.

Would you pay more?

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Actually Vera my wife worked for 13 years for Ocean Reef in Key Largo. Now this is a resort by invitation only but it is a small town. 3 golf courses, shopping centers, and many restaurants. It is so secure it takes a month after one is hired to go through the FBI screening before you can even enter the place. This place is only opened 6 months a year with only a few people living there year round.

Now that you had some back ground they compensated their waitstaff/bartenders simply due to the fact people there paid via private membership cards. No cash ever changed hands. Now keep in mind a cup of coffee there would cost you about $2 and that is at a time one would spend a quarter for a cup every where else (pre Starbuck's). All of there waitstaff/bartenders got a guaranteed wage and since they saw how much money every one made the wage was based on tips with Ocean Reef paying any difference. However if you made over their minimum you got it all other than you paid taxes on every cent you made. She made a very good living in 6 months and about twice what I made as a senior system analyst for Dade County Public Schools.

Now the other 6 months a year she worked in other restaurants as a waitress or bartender. There she made anywhere from $1.25 to $3 and paid taxes on 10% of the value of every check she dealt with regardless of the actual tip. She couldn't have supported herself on that if it wasn't for the other 6 months at Ocean Reef or me working never mind raising kids.

I would love to see us go to a system where every one gets a living wage that works but that will never happen in the USA in my opinion.

VeraBlue said:

I get your disatisfaction...happens all the time to all of us. I think that employees who were paid a fair wage would be subjected to the same expectations as any employee. In other words, if enough customers complained about the service they received they'd soon find themselves unemployed.

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Yes but then that would mean we basically have to make a sort of scene. We go out in excpectation of having a quiet, relaxing, night out...not a evening of can I speak to the mgr...and then all eyes on us as we explain the details of our displeasure.
Although two moths ago I was brought to that exact situation, we were at a restaurant/ Jazz lounge and the tip was included, we wouldn't have minded at all due to our server was pleasant and took decent care of us, but as we looked at our bill we not only found that there were items charged to us that we did not order, but also the tip amount was more that half the amount of the full bill! They had callculated more than a 50 dollar tip for our 80 something dollar bill total! OK computer error maybe....? So we brought it to the attention of the server, she said she would adjust it....she kept the tip amount on the added 40 bucks more for the tip ! WHAT?? So all was well after 3 times of adjusting it....our card was charged over 400 bucks that night for a 80 somthing dollar bill! And to top it off....this same thing happend the last time we were there and to thre other couples we knew. So long story short....I demanded to speak to the owner (she walks around the whole evening I knew who she was) we get the bartender....no I want to speak to the owner...after I explained the whole of the situation, all that was done was a shrug of the shoulders and a sorry.
Needless to say we have not been back since. Moral of the story....sometimes complaining or speaking to a mgr or adds to the frustration and still gets you no where!

Keltin said:

Wow! Look at that, we posted the same thing!!

Karma for you!!

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LOL thats cool!

I don't like the idea of building the tip into the price of the meal. At the restaurants that do that (usually if you have 6 or more people), I have found the service to be sub-par, because the incentive is gone. I'm not asking for anyone to KMA, but at least make a pass by the table a few times to make sure everything is OK, and I find that does not happen. No, I don't like the idea.

BamsBBQ said:

and that calls for NO TIP... customer services is key, i have left a big tip b4 even when the food was crappy because i still got excellent service.

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Same here, we went to one place and I ordered a Ribeye medium rare. DW had Chicken Marsala. Both arrived at the same time, but my steak was RAW! Look, I’m not squeamish, and I don’t mind a little tar-tar every now and then, but this thing was still COLD in the middle and blood red.

I told the server (waitress) and she was so sorry and took it back to have it re-heated and cooked properly. She finally brings it back and walks off to help another table.

Guess what. STILL RAW! I’m not kidding. She came back and asked how it was now, and I showed her. She seemed genuinely embarrassed and wanted to take it back to try again. I politely told her it wasn’t her fault and to please bring me a doggie box as I could cook it at home later.

So she leaves and brings back the box and apologizes again! I told her it wasn’t her fault, but she still apologized and said she had written off my meal and it was free. No charge even though I got to take it all home and cook it myself.

I was impressed. She was incredibly nice and really tried to help even though the Kitchen royally dropped the ball.

I left her an outstanding tip that amounted to the amount of money that my steak dinner would have cost, plus the 20% of the total I typically leave. Hey, it wasn’t her fault, and I meant to spend that money anyway. She helped us out, and even gave me a nicely cut steak with sides to cook at home. I thought it appropriate; and I was very impressed with how well she treated us and handled herself.

Oh didn't answer the orginial question you asked Vera sorry.

"So....my question is, do you think, as a society, we'd ever be able to move away from tipping and just pay for the service, or have it included in the actual price of the service? When the meal is as expensive as it is already, would you be willing to pay a bit more and not have to worry about the tip?"

It would depend on the restaurant in my opinion in the case of Ocean Reef these people expected supper service and got it. The also added a 15% gratuities in the check but my wife as the other waitstaff/bartender rarely got below 20% and often 30%. Now ocean reef isn't the average steak house or chain restaurant where they make money but fast turnover and the waitstaff is often handling more tables than they can handle with the faster turnover.

Now as a person married to a waitress I always tip even if the food is bad something the waitstaff often gets short tipped on as some think they actually cook the meals too. In my case I wouldn't have a problem with tips as part of the check or better yet pay the waitstaff a decent wage and do away with tipping passing on the cost to the customer.

Deelady said:

Yes but then that would mean we basically have to make a sort of scene. We go out in excpectation of having a quiet, relaxing, night out...not a evening of can I speak to the mgr...and then all eyes on us as we explain the details of our displeasure.
Although two moths ago I was brought to that exact situation, we were at a restaurant/ Jazz lounge and the tip was included, we wouldn't have minded at all due to our server was pleasant and took decent care of us, but as we looked at our bill we not only found that there were items charged to us that we did not order, but also the tip amount was more that half the amount of the full bill! They had callculated more than a 50 dollar tip for our 80 something dollar bill total! OK computer error maybe....? So we brought it to the attention of the server, she said she would adjust it....she kept the tip amount on the added 40 bucks more for the tip ! WHAT?? So all was well after 3 times of adjusting it....our card was charged over 400 bucks that night for a 80 somthing dollar bill! And to top it off....this same thing happend the last time we were there and to thre other couples we knew. So long story short....I demanded to speak to the owner (she walks around the whole evening I knew who she was) we get the bartender....no I want to speak to the owner...after I explained the whole of the situation, all that was done was a shrug of the shoulders and a sorry.
Needless to say we have not been back since. Moral of the story....sometimes complaining or speaking to a mgr or adds to the frustration and still gets you no where!

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Deelady, if that happened to me, I would be calling the BBB, and any local TV station that has a "Problem Solver" or "Troubleshooter" type program. Get it out in the open and publicized.

Now, about the original topic.

I work in an establishment that charges a 15% gratuity on all transactions. I don't see any of that, as I'm rarely the person actually ringing up the sale, and when I am ringing the sale, at the Halfway House on the golf course, the gal that runs that gets the gratuity, even though she's gone and I'm ringing the sales.

We work VERY hard in the country club to insure that the members (and their guests) get what they want. I am always asking for feedback from waitstaff about the meals I'm sending out. I have even been known to go out and talk to members at their tables.

I very rarely see any of the "green thanks". Then again, I make a very good hourly salary, so I'm not that peeved about it.

The ugly side is, this IS a country club, populated in majority by a bunch of dirty old men. I've actually had one member tell me that the next bar cart girl the Food & Beverage manager hired needed to be "well blessed". I've heard things about what some of the waitstaff has done with members to get good cash "under the table" tips. Several months ago, we had a bartender suddenly decide to quit (he didn't walk out, just let it be known that this was his last night), after we did about 20 people, and the waitresses all got decent tips, but he got jack. He knew that the girls weren't overly trying to work the members over for tips, but that the members were trying to buy some affections from the waitresses. Last year, we actually had a couple waitresses FIRED after they were caught waiting on one rather rich member, without their bras on, while wearing rather flimsy shirts.

I usually do tip well, when I get good service. Of course, I don't eat out much anymore, as I can usually out-cook the restaurant I'm patronizing.

I'm not sure that automatically adding the gratuity into the bill is a good idea.

I think it depends. Some waitstaff will gain, and some will lose depending on how well they do their job...

First of all, eating out is optional. I think the majority of people who dine out don't intentionally skimp on tipping. But I have seen those who can most afford to tip the best, and are afforded the best service due to "who" they may be, be the cheapest, fusiest customers.
I don't know how it could be implimented, Vera, to keep it fair to all on both sides, but for now, I think tipping is the only way to show ones satisfaction with food, cleanliness, and service.
I for one know for instance in a Japanese restaurant environment, we leave a tip at the end of the meal with the cheque, but we also slip a tip into the chef's apron, when he's done cooking the table's meals. Also at upscale buffets, where there's someone carving individual pieces of meat for each diner.
We also will talk to management if we feel something is above or below par.
If a place has out of the ordinary service of some kind, or has an exceptional server, how else are you going to point this out?
I'm sure there are other situations too, but those are two I can think of now.
Good question, Vera.

What are your feelings?

Calicolady said:

First of all, eating out is optional. I think the majority of people who dine out don't intentionally skimp on tipping. But I have seen those who can most afford to tip the best, and are afforded the best service due to "who" they may be, be the cheapest, fusiest customers.

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I agree.I think very often those who are used to being "served" take service for granted those who are used to "serving" tend to be more understanding of what a couple extra bucks means.

As I have said before I was raised in a disproportionally well-off suburb. People there are incredibly demanding and can be unbelievably cheap they take service for granted and consider themselves to be superior beings (this is a generalization but rings true for many many people I know and have observed there) My family and others like ours who were not as well off tended to view service... waiters, gardeners, contractors, house cleaners, shopkeepers, teachers etc more as contemporaries doing their jobs than as servants. This level of "empathy" I believe lends to more generous tipping and more civil behavior. Some of the attitude I have seen thrown about by well heeled well educated people has been unbelievably abhorrent.

I think tipping will always be there to some degree.

As to Deelady's predicament, call the credit card company and stop payment! You didn't just get ripped off, you got royally raped! I'd have raised holy hell right in front of the whole damn joint. B'lieve me, if that manager had any brains, she'd have given you the keys to the place to shut you up. Squeaky wheels and grease, ya know.

The place I frequent has some pretty mediocre waitstaff. They get a bit less than 15%. They've also got a couple of stellar waitresses who get 20%+ from me. I've been going there long enough to know these gals. Occasionally, I'll tell the "Stellars" that I appreciate them and really enjoy being in their section. Sometimes, I think that means more than the tip.

Now, for poor service....don't completely stiff 'em. Leave a teeeeeeeny tip. Bigger message than no tip at all. Pisses 'em off too!

PanchoHambre said:

Some of the attitude I have seen thrown about by well heeled well educated people has been unbelievably abhorrent.

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Don't get me started! The stories I can tell!

Calicolady said:

Good question, Vera.

What are your feelings?

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I'd love to see tipping eliminated all across the board...and just pay the price of the service. With that, however, anyone in the service industry should be getting a reasonable wage just like office workers, construction workers, doctors, etc...

I agree, Vera. I would like to see it eliminated, too. I think foodservice workers deserve a living wage up front.

I can see the points about service suffering - and it might for a while. But in the end, I think restaurant owners would make sure that their waitstaff was providing good service to ensure repeat customers. As it stands now, even though I tip well, I don't always get good service so I don't think eliminating tips would automatically have a negative impact on service.

VeraBlue said:

I get your disatisfaction...happens all the time to all of us. I think that employees who were paid a fair wage would be subjected to the same expectations as any employee. In other words, if enough customers complained about the service they received they'd soon find themselves unemployed.

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I wouldn't mind having the tip included. It would turn the attention of the quality of service to the face of the restaurant rather than the single person serving you. So the management would have to make sure they hired decent employees. As it is now, reducing a tip without saying anything to a manager is a way for someone to feel they did a justice for bad service. If the tip was automatically included, customers would have no choice but to voice their complaint to the management.

Make any sense?

Just the other day my wife worked a full day. After tipping the bus-boys she came home with $40.

High Cheese said:

Just the other day my wife worked a full day. After tipping the bus-boys she came home with $40.

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Wow...that sucks, Cheese....I used to be a waitress. I guess it's been 14 years ago now. I didn't have share my tips with anyone...never did think it was right to have to share. Personally I think the sharing of the tips comes from greedy owners who don't want to pay the staff. Anyway, I worked at Cracker Barrel (not exactly your high end restaurant) and usually made more than that on a bad day. The economy must really have taken it's toll on wait people.

Like tipping myself. I think it provides incentive to excel. We usually give 20% if service is decent (we don't need our hands held - not high maintenance). Waiter would have to go out of their way to plunge that downward. We give more 30% plus at places where we regularly dine.

We also raise the 20% some if there isn't anything on the menu the waiter could afford w/ the tip. I flipped burgers at Micky D's (don't want to infringe any trademarks here) & washed dishes and similar at a few restaurants in my day.

I would rather see the system go away as far as dependency on tips to make a decent wage. Just pay them a decent wage, and let customers that get great service tip them for it. A decent wage plus tips for being good at your job sounds cool to me.
As for just building tips into the check automatically, no way. Several do that here now and we no longer frequent them. On the way out we explained to the manager/owner that no way we were paying for service that may or may not be up to standards, it was just wrong. At least one has changed back and stopped doing that, I guess a lot of people don't like being forced to tip for bad service.