Birds of a Feather? Three Knives Together.

[The Tourist]

One of the nice things about being a roguishly handsome, chiseled featured, blue-eyed, bon vivant tinker and troublemaker (this title has been bestowed in print) is that I have numerous knives laying around at my pleasure. Yikes, thery're everywhere.

I caught my dog sharpening one last night (Phfewwww, she uses a convex edge...) Inside joke.

But I do have one major benefit you might not recognize as being seemingly important. That being I can mix, match and compare!

Below are three knives which in a normal home--and I was in one, once--you might find. One is your average Chicago Cutlery blade, one is a pretty nice newer version Pampered Chef example, and one of them is a (*sigh* gush) multi-layered, Japanese, Hattori gyuto.

(While very nice, the Hattori is more to the lower end in pricing.)

Here's what I suggest. You might have questions and concerns. You might want info when they're sharp/dull. You might want to see them cut the things you like. You may want some simple tutorials on concerns you have in outfitting your kitchen for a planned upgrade. Whatever.

But these three knives do the same work (in a non-professional home kitchen) and disseminating this style of info is what Jim_Slagel and Doc have requested we address. In other words, how do the members of NC think, feel and make choices--and how best can we enhance the enjoyment of the forum.

I'd like to hear about your opinions, your needs and your hopes for a discussion here in NC. Let's debate the comparisons. Thanks.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/TheTourist_bucket/DSC00391.jpg

[Locutus]

That Guyoto is one beautiful knife. :chef:

[The Tourist]

That Guyoto is one beautiful knife. :chef:

Yeah, ain't it.

Over the next few days I'm going to inspect the edges, polish if needed, take some suggestions and questions and perhaps a few pics while we make dinner.

Ron, if you get out again in the wilderness once more before the snows, I think the members here might like to see a camping style set up and the preparation knives you rely upon.

[The Tourist]

To begin this treatise on raising the bar on implements for your cooking experience, I decided to start at the very bottom. And I kid you not, this is the bottom.

To be kind, the knife I chose is a Chicago Cutlery knock-off. Which is like saying that a Yugo is a "Gremlin knock-off." If a company is going to tool up to make lower cost knives, why start here? In point of fact, it's a stamped steel blank. As I worked I could see the ripples in the steel, probably from the impact of a mechanized punch press.

However, it demonstrates a very important aspect of kitchens in the real world. It is probably very representational of the average American kitchen knife jammed into the flatware drawer. And it is junk.

Initially, work of this sort begins with repair. I chose the Edge Pro (Pro Model) guided system for this job. The steel cut pretty easily, and I decided not to use medium/coarse stones here. I chose a 320 grit, which some people use as their final polishing stone for general cutlery. It does cube semi-thawed meat quite nicely.

But that was not the goal here. After the 320, came to the EP stone I truly like, the 800. With a dousing of clean water in a shameless Affogato of a cutting stone, an 800 can just about do a finish buffing.

Again, we're shooting for the ultimate. We continue with "polishing."

I began with a middle-of-the-road polishing tape, and applied a good starting buffing paste. I use Mothers Mag Wheel paste. Yes, I know it's for polishing motorcycles...

After the edge starts to mirror and any vestige of a rough edge is gone, I switch to a fine grade of polishing paper and use the best quality paste I can find, Mothers Billet paste. Yes, I know it's for polishing motorcycles...

From then on it's buff, buff, buff...

When I check the edge with my bare finger prints (called "Tickling the Dragon"), and I feel any roughness whatsoever, I adjust the setting a tad wider, or 'steeper.' You cannot actually see the setting move. I can tell simply by feel, like something had 'give.' A few buffing strokes to the very edge of the knife completes the process.

Now, this is where the debate begins, even among tinkers. First, can this 'zen' approach, or the completion of a craft, even call itself 'sharpening' as some define it? This is an eight-dollar knife, tops. Is a 100-dollar polishing a fitting way to approach this project?

To a professional chef, a 'knife' is just a apparatus for carrying the edge to the food. It's a tool that makes him/her money. It's a shiny paycheck. The signature dish is the real artform. Heck, I know cooks who would take this knife to work today. And bounce it off the floor when they went home. "It's only a knife," they would gesticulate, "I am the real star..."

But here's my opinion for NC. You must enjoy cooking or you wouldn't be here. It's a focus in your life. Your enjoyment, a chance to spread your wings. The bustle of guests, the crunch of fresh vegetables and the splash and hiss of cooking oil might be the thing in life you most value.

And if I handed you the knife, would you take it?

Now, the big question, does this answer to our debate enhance your life and the experience of preparing food? Would you approach your time in the kitchen with a newfound spirit? One down, two knives to go.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/TheTourist_bucket/DSC00393.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/TheTourist_bucket/DSC00392.jpg

[jim_slagle]

Quick question.

You mentioned that the knife was stamped. If it's like other stuff I work with stamping is the fastest and cheapest method of producing something. Not necessarily high quality but it functions.

What other methods are used? Forging, cast, etc . . . .

How do you rate the mfg methods?

What about the price difference?

sorry, more than one question. Hard to stop once I start.

Jim

[Rhodemaster]

So you took a cheap Walmart Knife and spent a bunch of time sharpening it. Now it's sharp enough to slice a strawberry.

Isn't it that sharp when I take it out of the package?

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with?

You're asking about a professional chef using that knife in his work. I think the ergonomics of the handles may be an issue for him as well.

[jim_slagle]

Rhodemaster, WELCOME TO THE FORUM! :tiphat:

Glad you found us!

Jim

So you took a cheap Walmart Knife and spent a bunch of time sharpening it. Now it's sharp enough to slice a strawberry.

Chico, wouldn't it have been easier if the strawberries were too large to just buy smaller ones? :yankchain:

[The Tourist]

What's the difference

Jim and Rhodemaster, that's the question I'm looking at. Of course, there is a point of diminshing returns. This knife is the example.

I believe the "equation," if I can use that word, is your ability to make your ideas become reality. For me, it might be a detailed truck, for you it might be a perfect souffle. But how do we get there, are there better plans? How do I evaluate this process?

(I think my perspective is testing cutting implements. I can't cook. But you guys can cook, you guys create. How can we get you where you wish to go?)

Basically, you asked if that process is worth it for this knife, an el cheapo, stamped steel knife. Unfortunately, this style of knife is in millions of homes. And truth be told, a knife like this even resides in many knife rolls of sous-chefs, and I've seen worse. Not everyone here can afford a full set of top of the line implements, for any kitchen job. (Hey, the sample knife is mine!)

This knife was never this sharp, out of the box or sitting in my home. But that's the debate, and the forum is a place for debates.

So, here's my position on this knife.

It's junk. It's always going to be junk. Paying a professional tinker like me three-figures for a knife that might go soft at the drop of a hat is a waste. Oh, you could barter my services--cut my grass. But real money? Not a chance.

(Oh, the point of the strawberry was to show that even this knife can be made to slice.)

As for stamping vs. forging (even MIM casting), those concerns will be addressed on the next knife. But Jim, you are correct, stamping is the fastest and cheapest way to make things, anything. I worked a plant as a boy that had a dozen automated punch-presses spitting out parts all day long, three shifts.

And the best way to run a factory like that is to use soft steel to protect your stamping dies. And you don't spend a lot of time harding those blanks. You dump them in spinning barrels full of steel shot and surface harden them.

Now, you mention function. When you got nuttin' you got nuttin' to lose. And my guess is most homes have this knife, not something better. Obviously I don't charge forum members, I never have. But the real debate is "Can I become a better cook," it's not "Can I slice like Cat Cora."

[Rhodemaster]

Tourist...

You didn't answer my question...

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with?

How do you know that this isn't actually a good knife or at least a decent one that will work just fine in someone's home?

[Locutus]

Tourist...

You didn't answer my question...

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with?

How do you know that this isn't actually a good knife or at least a decent one that will work just fine in someone's home?


Actually, this knife will work in your home. But if you have to cube 3 or 4 pounds of beef, it's going to get dull REAL fast, and you're left with the choice of stopping to sharpen it, or continuing to try to cut with a very dull knife.

I don't own, and can't justify buying something like a Hattori chef knife. But I do have a couple of kitchen knifes that are a good bit higher quality than this one, and when I spend the time to really sharpen them, I can get through preparing a meal, even a really fancy one, without steeling/sharpening my knife, and without having to put 25 lbs of pressure on the edge to get it through a steak.

If I'm going to be doing a LOT slicing and dicing, I often use one of my very high quality hunting knives, so I can get the food prep done without stopping.

To me, at least, it's simply a matter of having the highest quality tool that I can afford, for job to be done, and then taking good care of that tool.

Whether it's a kitchen knife or a screwdriver, I cant afford/justify the cost of the "top of the line" but I'm getting too old and ornery to "make do" with the bottom of the line.

I think what Tourist is pointing out is that with proper care, and a little effort, even less than the best can be made to perform quite well indeed. :smile:

[The Tourist]

Tourist...You didn't answer my question...

Sorry, not my intention. I did wish to profile each knife and offer my singular opinion before we started putting them head to head.

However, you are right, and I believe Locutus nailed the correct answer.

My position is that all three of these knives are common factors in American homes. For this knife in particular you can enjoy improvement, but you should also have some fairly low expectations.

I took a nap this afternoon, my wife got "snacky" and cooked up a sauce pan of butter and garlic zuchini. I had told her if she got a chance to use the knife and give me an opinion.

She gave the thing some left-handed praise. Oh, it's nice, it's better than it was, it did the job--things like that. So I cleaned the knife in a sink full of dishes and checked the edge.

The tip and the edge about an inch back still seemed crisp. The portion from the ricasso forward about two inches felt the same. However, that "middle area" already had the sensation of being worn. There were a few pieces of zuchini in the sink, and made some slices.

Yes, the knife still sliced. The rear portion of the blade did so quite easily. But those strokes had a familiar "drag" feeling I've come to know as a degradation of the edge. And this occurred in slicing five or so inches of one section of zuchini.

I can/will try two things. I have a custom made smooth butcher's steel, and I have numerous brands of paste and a free hanging strop. I'll see if I can bring back the edge or stop the downward performance.

Rhodemaster, thanks for the input and I'll do more singular evaluations as the knives are prepared.

[Rhodemaster]

I'm becoming confused here....

Locutus said "But if you have to cube 3 or 4 pounds of beef, it's going to get dull REAL fast."

Why would the knife become dull from cutting beef? What makes the knife get dull so quickly? I thought Beef or any meat for that matter was pretty easy to cut.

Tourist, what do you mean by "Profile each knife?"

Also, could you explain "I'll see if I can bring back the edge or stop the downward performance" by using a butcher's steel. I thought you sharpen a knife by removing material from the edge. How would a smooth piece of steel
sharpen a knife?

[The Tourist]

Locutus said "But if you have to cube 3 or 4 pounds of beef, it's going to get dull REAL fast."

Yes, he's correct. There are some some knives (alloys) that can be sharpened to deftly slice a single piece of newsprint like a razor blade. Slice one onion and the knife won't cut anything. In fact, it will tear the same newsprint.

Tourist, what do you mean by "Profile each knife?"

I meant evaluate, showcase, spotlight, discuss. The term might be confusing because if you "re-profile" a knife you change the angle.

Also, could you explain "I'll see if I can bring back the edge or stop the downward performance" by using a butcher's steel. I thought you sharpen a knife by removing material from the edge. How would a smooth piece of steel sharpen a knife?

You cannot sharpen a dull knife with a steel. But you can "tune it up." You can gently re-align the edge if it's been bent slightly or rolled.

On Alton Brown's website he has a tutorial which explains the concepts discussed here--alloys, blade types, edge geometry, care and steels--in a very humorous video.

Click on the link and go down the page half-way to the part marked:

*> SEE THE VIDEO <*

It only takes a few minutes to watch, and it's very good.

http://www.altonbrown.com/shun/shun_edge.html

[Rhodemaster]

You seem to know a lot about knives. a lot more than me so please bear with me so I can learn.

Locutus said that a knife would get dull from cutting meat and I asked how that could happen. Either I'm especially dense and didn't understand the answer or you forgot to answer.

I think it might have something to do with the edge being bent or rolled?

Is there some way of preventing the edge from bending, like holding the knife in a certain way or storing it correctly?

[The Tourist]

Is there some way of preventing the edge from bending, like holding the knife in a certain way or storing it correctly?

If you find a way, we'll patent it and split the profits.

The edge of a knife bends, chips or is compressed from many different uses and abuses.

For example, a chisel is meant to be driven firmly into what it needs to cut. Doing the same thing to a knife almost always causes damage. There is even a debate on what style cutting board is best for edge longevity.

Strangley, the best way to keep an edge actually makes it more difficult to cut with. A razor cuts well, but dulls easily by the nature of being fragile. An axe with a more obtuse bevel might last for months.

Most knives, and I use the word "most" very guardedly, are sharpened at about 20 degrees. A knife used in hunting called a "caping knife" might have an edge of 15 degrees or less. Most Japanese laminated blades used for slicing, or fish or chicken are about 10 degrees. A nakiri can go about 6 to 8 degrees.

As I said, you can "re-profile" any knife to a thinner edge, and many of us do.

Additionally, you can store knives better. In a wooden kitchen block, slide them into the slots upside down. It isn't going to make the knife last forever, but it helps. They also make magnetic strips for storage, and that's an esthetic issue.

Never wash a knife in a dishwasher. Use a butchers steel--lightly.

As for holding a knife, I've never heard of a technique. Of course, I have never been to culinary school. I know they teach knife handling in those classes. Perhaps a cook or sous-chef here can give you a better answer.

Now this is going to get me into trouble. I believe that edges can also undergo stresses when they are sharpened. The act of polishing actually abrades steel. I think the edge should be a stiff, lubricated and handled as delicately as possible. To achieve those conditions when I work, I freeze the knife before sharpening.

[Rhodemaster]

So. when I'm cutting meat, the edge is bending? How can that happen?

Steel is very hard and meat is very soft, right?

These angles you mention.... why are they all different?

This is all rather confusing.... can you explain it simply so I can understand?

[The Tourist]

So. when I'm cutting meat, the edge is bending? How can that happen?

Steel is very hard and meat is very soft, right?

These angles you mention.... why are they all different?

This is all rather confusing.... can you explain it simply so I can understand?

The edge, when used, is both bending and wearing. Doing anything to a knife, even cutting newsprint, wears on the edge. The bending is caused by poor handling and storage, and being rammed into improper cutting boards. (Did you watch Alton Brown's tutorial?)

Angles are different because things that need cutting are different. Firewood needs to be cut into the proper size. Your face needs to be shaved. Two different angles on the cutting instruments.

As for simple or difficult to understand, that's the nature of sharpening and metallurgy. In fact, before purchasing a knife you might be well served by researched the alloy the cutler uses and then thinking about what you're going to cut.

[joec]

That would depend on the knife, profile of the knife, hardness of the knife etc. You can dull a knife on a piece of card board which is a lot softer than the steel for example. It really hasn't much to do with the hardness as many things softer than steel will dull it over time.

Now if I slice a piece of meat up with one of my knives (all Japanese) I don't notice much difference in the edge but over time a knife will go dull. I use several different length knives exclusively for just that and the edges last without need to resharpen depending on the the steel and edge on the knife.

As to why different angles are used on knives perhaps I can explain it this way. Now a Euro knife is typically softer steel than say a Japanese knife but more than a bit. Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. With a Japanese knife the blades are much thinner with more acute angles but even with them a general purpose knife like a gyuto will have a more obtuse angle than say a dedicated vegetable knife. Japanese knives are also more specific function knives than Euro knives.

I absolutely understand the confusion on this subject. I started learning about kitchen knives a little over 3 years ago when I was given a Shun as a gift. I started searching for the best way to sharpen it which opened a whole new world of high end kitchen cutlery. A good book by Chad Ward that covers kitchen cutlery as well as a lot of other things is A Edge In The Kitchen. It is carried at amazon.com as well as many other places. It is well worth a read and Chad Ward also has several sites all listed with this review of the book http://www.chadwrites.com/

[The Tourist]

Japanese knives are also more specific function knives than Euro knives.

And while that might be another hurdle in building a nice set of knives for kitchen use, it sure pays dividends.

In many ways, I'm right there with the client on personal knives. When I began my upgrade, I started with a gyuto and a nakiri--basically "meat" and "vegetables." I made peace with myself that I would have to polish currently owned fish and chicken knives more often to enhance performance.

(Additionally, my wife is not a big fan of sashimi knives. A deba to her is just a "Japanese meat cleaver.")

I would say that my wife also handles 75% of the cutting in our home. Her preference is for lighter, whippier and shorter knives. Looking over her favorites, five inches of good steel is all she desires.

But as I told Rhodemaster, I have the luxury of being able to re-profile. Now, the Hattori could run the entire kitchen in a pinch, but my thinking is turning to securing a 4-3/4" Maboroshi No Meito Fruit Knife - Fujiwara.

My wife already has the smaller Pampered Chef santuko, and she doesn't use that much. She doesn't even use a paring knife much.

If I bought the fruit knife, with an eye to studying the edge, made the adjustments needed, it just might work for her requirments for fish and fruit. We have heavier blades and a kitchen scissors for deboning chicken.

I realize that I just confused most of our Japanese knife collectors. But there is no magical rule book for dedicated use. It's nice to have a wider spectrum of quality edged tools. However, you must also prepare yourself for the call of the wife when she says, "Hey, Tinker, what I really need is a knife for..."

[joec]

Yes my experience with my wife after 43 years of marriage is long knives makes her nervous. It has taken me two years to get her to actually use a 210mm Misono UX10 gyuto. I also have her slicing with a 240mm Takeda sujihiki. Even with the 30 or so knives I own she will still grab a 150mm petty (utility) or a 3.5" Shun Paring knife most of the time. Now I never worry about my personal choice the Chinese (thin) cleavers as she won't even watch me slice and dice with them. :mrgreen:

[The Tourist]

JoeC, that's a good topic for discussion here:

"How can a tinker get you the perfect knife?"

Both of us know the problem. The bigger gyutos might actually have the design, but a serious home cook or food hobbyist, (I like that expression better than "foodie") might actually prefer a fruit knife re-profiled to the edge of a Japanese chefs' knife.

Personally, I'd love to have a member here tell me, "Hey, Chico, I got this knife and I cook German pigs' knuckles, what can you do for me?"

It's here I think Sattie can help us. I've been asking her to send me one of her common use knives, preferrably one that runs her kitchen--and perhaps a little background about her favorite foods.

Then she could report from the perspective of a real food hobbyist working with a real knife in the setting of her individual life.

I've stated the issue I find in this equation. Chefs have one skill, and tinkers have another. We need their in-put, they need our edges.

[Rhodemaster]

Tourist:

As I understand what you have been saying, knives are sharpened for specific jobs, right?

If that's is so, what did you sharpen the cheap knife to do? I don't see any mention of that. If you sharpened the cheap knife to cut something very soft and the zucchini your wife was cutting with it is rather hard, isn't that going to hurt the knife?

What is it that you change to sharpen the knife to do a specific job? The quality of polish on the edge?

I need to do a bunch more reading on this subject: there seems like a lot to learn before I can become an expert like you.

[joec]

If I can Rhodemaster, cheap knives in many cases are not worth the effort of sharpening. Knives like Chicago Cutlery sold by WalMart for example might take and edge until you cut an onion with it and get about half done when it is dull again. I would guess that 90% of the public have garbage sets of knives in their kitchen in that they bought them because they are cheap, look pretty on the counter top. With that said most will sharpen them with the attachment on the electric can opener or some other device that doesn't work.

The average home kitchen only has a need for 2 to 5 knives. That being a chef's knife (size you are comfortable with), paring knife is really the main knives. Now the rest is up to you for example a 5 to 6 inch petty knife (utility or even a boning could fill this), a bread knife if you eat hard crusted breads that need a good serrated edge, carving knife if you eat meat and longer ones if you like melon. Aside from that I made it over 30 years with a Dexter Chinese cleaver and a disposable paring knife. Both are cheap until you figure out how many of the paring knives I bought in those years. Now I have a high end paring knife that takes and holds and edge for a very long time.

Also some steels it just isn't worth going as high a grit as I do (30K in some cases) but will do fine with a 500x stone. It really does depend on the steel and knife's intended uses.

[Rhodemaster]

Guys, the questions is simple....

cheap knives in many cases are not worth the effort of sharpening. Knives like Chicago Cutlery sold by WalMart for example might take and edge until you cut an onion with it and get about half done when it is dull again.

What is the difference? What makes a "cheap" knife cheap and a "good" knife good?

[Locutus]

I'll try that one.

Steel is an alloy of iron and other materials. The most basic steel is 1095, which is nothing more than iron and carbon. But properly heat treated and tempered, it makes a fairly good blade steel.

Now, add 15 percent chromium, and you have stainless steel. add a tiny bit of vanadfium and tungstewn, and you have extremely hard syainless steel. Take out most of the chromiun from the last oine, and you have non-stainless "tool steel."

It gets pretty complicated, but steel for knives is like just about everything else in life. The "good stuff" is more expensive to buy raw materials for, takes more labor to make, wears tooling out faster, and, no surprise, costs more. I'll try to look up a webpage and post it.

www.agrussell.com/Steel_Guide/a/73 (http://www.agrussell.com/Steel_Guide/a/73)

Okay, I found it!

Read some of the stuff that goes into the various steels, and you'll see why there is such a disparity in prices, and quality.

[joec]

Very simple there better quality steels, better blade geometry, better tempering of the steel. All of which means better cutting ability, sharper thinner edges that hold it. A good knife is hardened properly, the geometry of the blade is really thought out. A cheap knife is often stamped out of a sheet of steel then cut into shape with little or no tempering. They design based on what they think a knife should look like with a fancy handle, fancy set with a block none of which is what it is all about except their bottom line. In knives you really do get exactly what you pay for.

[Locutus]

Rhodemaster,

I don't mean to frighten you, but you sound an awful lot like me 15 years ago! :D:D

Someone got me interested in sharpening my own hunting knives, and I bought a set of Crock Sticks.

Now I'm reading books on metallurgy, and experimenting on $300 blades. When you get addicted, look back anbd remember that I warned you. :mrgreen:

Seriously, keep the questions coming! When I have to answer a question, most of the time, I end up learning as much as the person who asked! :tongue:

[joec]

Here are my 3 favorite sites for buying knives.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/products.html
http://www.epicureanedge.com/default.asp?websess=41154421746347
http://www.korin.com/

Now some good entry level knives are Tojiro, Kanetsugu Pro M Series, Hiromoto just to name 3. These are all fairly inexpensive but a single knife will cost more than the junk set from WalMart. I suggest to people they spend the most on their most used knife and but the others as needed spending down for those knives least used. Korin has its own line of knives that are made by a great knife making company in Japan so they are a great value also.

[Rhodemaster]

I'm becoming rather confused and frustrated, maybe I just forgot how to read.

I have asked questions that aren't being answered, with each question there seems to be a different aspect of knives being brought into the conversation instead of an answer to the question.

From the reading you've suggested I have come to understand that knives aren't as simple as I thought, but I think the questions I have asked are valid and worthy of answers.

If the goal is to confuse, you're doing a very good job.

Here are the questions that haven't been answered:

Isn't it (the cheap knife you sharpened?) that sharp when I take it out of the package? You cut a strawberry, something I would think any knife should be able to do.

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with? Aside from the edge looking very shiny, what did you accomplish. I recall you saying that it became dull when you cut a zucchini, again something I would think any knife could cut.

Locutus said that the cheap knife would become dull from cutting beef. Why would the knife become dull from cutting beef? What makes the knife get dull so quickly? I thought Beef or any meat for that matter was pretty easy to cut.*

Tourist said that the edge bends which makes the knife seem dull. So. when I'm cutting meat, the edge is bending? How can that happen? Steel is very hard and meat is very soft, right?

JoeC said that European Knives use softer steel than the Japanese Knives. I did some of the reading that you recommended and I'm under the impression that knives are hard or soft because of heat treating. I have more questions about that as well but I'll ask them later because we haven't talked about that yet and I do have a question about the next thing JoeC said.

He said: “ Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. “

Is that rolling the same as the bending that Tourist was talking about?

If it is and if the Japanese knives have different angles, do they do that to prevent the bending and if so, why wouldn't Tourist have done that to the cheap knife to prevent the problem?

Tourist has mentioned different angles on razors and on axes, I'm thinking that knives are somewhere in between, but that is a pretty big between. Why are the angles so different between knives. I'll probably ask the same question related to steel if you'll permit me to continue asking questions.

[joec]

JoeC said that European Knives use softer steel than the Japanese Knives. I did some of the reading that you recommended and I'm under the impression that knives are hard or soft because of heat treating. I have more questions about that as well but I'll ask them later because we haven't talked about that yet and I do have a question about the next thing JoeC said.

He said: “ Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. “

Is that rolling the same as the bending that Tourist was talking about?

If it is and if the Japanese knives have different angles, do they do that to prevent the bending and if so, why wouldn't Tourist have done that to the cheap knife to prevent the problem?

Tourist has mentioned different angles on razors and on axes, I'm thinking that knives are somewhere in between, but that is a pretty big between. Why are the angles so different between knives. I'll probably ask the same question related to steel if you'll permit me to continue asking questions.

OK a harder knife will not roll as easily as a soft knife period but it will chip easier than a soft knife. This is why hunting knives, swords are not hard but do have thicker blades than say a Japanese knife.

Now the type of metal used will have a range of heat treatments. In plain simple words Hitachi steel produces the best steels on the planet. Japanese knives use Hitachi steels but Hitachi won't sell to Europe or the US. Now there are some good steels made by both Europe and the US but not grades that are particularly good in kitchen knives.

Chico is correct in that some things will require a stronger edge. Here is an example say a cleaver that is heavy and used to cut bones. This cleaver will require more obtuse edge than a cleaver that is thinner and designed to cut vegetables. The reason is really simple if you tried to cut a bone with the thin vegetable cleaver it might do it but it would chip. Also a bone buster won't be as hard as a much harder vegetable cleaver. They are designed to cut different things. It is really a trade off on each knife in that knives designed for a particular application works best with one steel while another application will get better results with a different steel. This is the only point I'm making here in regards to the steels. Some steels can't take or hold a very acute edge but dull quickly, while others don't get as sharp but hold its level of sharpness longer. It really does depend on each steels strengths in regards to the application it will be applied to.

Keep asking as I'm a big believer in the only stupid question is those you don't ask. I'm more than willing to answer what I can but I'm neither a pro sharpener nor an expert on steels. I'm a simple home cook that 3 years ago got into kitchen knives in a big way and have since used a lot of knives made of different steels.

[Rhodemaster]

Joe,

I appreciate your cogent response to my question.

I would really appreciate Tourist's Expert input on this. I 'll probably be spending a lot of money on good knives for the kitchen but before making a decision on them I need to learn about them.

This talk about angles and steels and polishing edges is very foreign to me and I don't think I'll ever get another opportunity to have an expert tutor me on this subject. This is a terrific place.

[joec]

Not a problem at all I'll simply step out. Oh and I've spent close to $8K on knives and stones in 3 years for what that is worth.

[Rhodemaster]

Joe, I wasn't chasing you out, I just want to take advantage of Tourist's Expertise for all of us.

8K is a lot of money, I don't mind spending it if it's a wise purchase. Spending too little is as bad as spending too much in my eyes. Frugal means spending just what is needed.

[joec]

You could spend as little as $150 for a couple of knives or as much as I've spent on 40 knives for just one knife. I have way more than I wanted but got interested and started buying knives by different makers in different steels. Needless to say I sharpened them, tested the edges and cutting of each and them I sold most of them. I've also spent a bundle on sharpening stones though I now have found what I consider to be the perfect set for the knives I now own and use.

I didn't think you was trying to chase me out of the tread at all and know that Chico is an expert sharpener however I'm sure I could match him on a knowledge of Japanese kitchen cutlery. As for sharpening all that I can't say since I've never seen Chico's work nor I have no opinion that is based in first hand knowledge but take his word for it. I'm just about getting your questions answer but have no problem if you have a particular person you want those answers from. Really I have no hard feeling at all nor did I take it the wrong way. I'm a pretty easy going guy and don't get my feathers ruffled easily at all. :smile:

[Locutus]

I'm becoming rather confused and frustrated, maybe I just forgot how to read.
Okay, I'll try!

I have asked questions that aren't being answered, with each question there seems to be a different aspect of knives being brought into the conversation instead of an answer to the question.

From the reading you've suggested I have come to understand that knives aren't as simple as I thought, but I think the questions I have asked are valid and worthy of answers.

If the goal is to confuse, you're doing a very good job.

Here are the questions that haven't been answered:

Isn't it (the cheap knife you sharpened?) that sharp when I take it out of the package? You cut a strawberry, something I would think any knife should be able to do.

No, it isn't that sharp out of the package. It has what's called a utility edge, not a refined edge. The utility edge will cut, but the refined edge cuts far better and smoother

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with? Aside from the edge looking very shiny, what did you accomplish. I recall you saying that it became dull when you cut a zucchini, again something I would think any knife could cut.

The difference is in the sharpness of the polished edge, and how clean of a cut you'll get. The polished, refined edge will last longer than
the utility edge, even on a cheap knife.

Locutus said that the cheap knife would become dull from cutting beef. Why would the knife become dull from cutting beef? What makes the knife get dull so quickly? I thought Beef or any meat for that matter was pretty easy to cut.*

Beef or pork, or etc is striated muscle tissue and is tough.

Tourist said that the edge bends which makes the knife seem dull. So. when I'm cutting meat, the edge is bending? How can that happen? Steel is very hard and meat is very soft, right?

I think that one was covered

JoeC said that European Knives use softer steel than the Japanese Knives. I did some of the reading that you recommended and I'm under the impression that knives are hard or soft because of heat treating. I have more questions about that as well but I'll ask them later because we haven't talked about that yet and I do have a question about the next thing JoeC said.

He said: “ Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. “

Is that rolling the same as the bending that Tourist was talking about?

Yes. Heat treating does indeed dertermine the hardness of a knife, but different steels are specifically made for certain "ranges" of hardness, and normally heat treated to that range. see the A.G. Russell steel guide I linked to.

Euro knives are usually specifically designed and heat treated to a lower hardness than Japanese kitchen knives. That makes them much more economical to produce, but much less able to maintain their sharpness for long periods of use. Japanese knives are normally laminated with soft steel on the outside for "toughness" and a hard core for edge retention. Again, this adds to the cost of manufacture. The Euro knife needs to be thicker due to the use of softer steel. (This doesn't make Euro knives "bad" just differently designed.)

If it is and if the Japanese knives have different angles, do they do that to prevent the bending and if so, why wouldn't Tourist have done that to the cheap knife to prevent the problem?

I'll leave that for Tourist. :tongue:

Tourist has mentioned different angles on razors and on axes, I'm thinking that knives are somewhere in between, but that is a pretty big between. Why are the angles so different between knives. I'll probably ask the same question related to steel if you'll permit me to continue asking questions.

Okay,I'll go back to black type!:D

I can't give you the math for this one, but the angle at which a tool, (knife,axe,chisel etc.) is sharpened is determied by the useage and the steel. For example, a short, thick bevel is right for an axe for splitting wood. A longer, thinner bevel is right for a knife.

Now, within the knife world, hunting/camping knives usually have a thicker edge than a butcher knife or a scalpel. The knife designer needs to adjust the design of the bevel, and select the blade shape (geometry) and select the type of steel determined by what the knife is designed to be used for.

(My arthritis in my fingers is kicking in, and I think I'd better quit typing for now! :mrgreen: )
I hope I've answered most of your questions! :tiphat:
But by all means, do ask whatever you want to know about this post, or steels or any other topic. If I know the answer I'll post it. If I don't, I'll leave it for someone who does. :read:

[The Tourist]

Rhodemaster, let me give you a little background into the knives and timing of this post.

First off, Doc, Jim_Slagle and Sattie are trying to build a new, first-rate cooking forum. They're going to need many specialists in that pursuit. JoeC, Locutus and I are the "knife guys." I'm sure the "pots and pans" and "French cookiing" specialists will arrive shortly.

In that mix, some of us have been accused of trying to be gurus, of trying be too lofty in our skills and explanations. So I began this first little competition with the most commonly used knife--the 'chefs' knives or the Japanese gyutos.

But Rhodemaster, we are speaking in generalities here. You are touching upon nuances that are defined by many myriad reasons. For example, one six-inch chefs knives might have better edge retentention than a similar appearing six-inch knife right beside it. In fact, many companies build "knock offs."

If that were the case, we would have to discuss 'heat treatments.'

I chose common chefs knives as our first jumping off point because everyone has one, most people use them daily and recognize them at a glance.

If my little 8-dollar knock-off fails, that's because this entire genre' of these knives does fail--that's the point. The 'failure' is part of the treatise, which is why I want to introduce each knife as a singular individual specimen, and then compare and contrast each one.

Yes, knives are metal and food dulls them. Yes, cutting boards and counter tops roll edges. Yes, a steel should be used to correct every day glitches. No, a steel is not a sharpening device.

Yes, I sharpen cheap knives for clients. I want them to get the most out of their investments. But you have to give us a chance. I can name two dozen steel alloys just sitting here--and those are just the "super steels."

If you let us untangle the maze of knife attributes, you find find answers, but more to the point, you will find clarity.

[Rhodemaster]

Tourist...

I think we're coming from the same place, just that you have a big head start on me and I think on a lot of other people reading this.

“some of us have been accused of trying to be gurus, of trying be too lofty in our skills and explanations.”

I'm beginning to believe that there may be some truth to that as I think my questions are basic questions that would enhance my understanding of knives in the kitchen.

“But Rhodemaster, we are speaking in generalities here. You are touching upon nuances that are defined by many myriad reasons. “

I think my questions are very general in nature, just slightly behind the rest of you in the learning curve.

So I'm going to ask the questions again, maybe by rephrasing them you'll understand the question so you can answer them. I did the reading you referred to so I think I may have a better base on which to ask questions.

Here's the first question.

The knife you started with according to Locutus has something called a “utility edge”, he also refers to a “refined edge.” I'm assuming that what you do when you're sharpening a customer's knife is 'refining the edge, ” is that correct?

Assuming that is the case, I can understand how the polished edge is going to cut more cleanly. Where you lose me is in how the knife can became dull so quickly.

The questions I asked were:

“Locutus said that the cheap knife would become dull from cutting beef. Why would the knife become dull from cutting beef?

What makes the knife get dull so quickly?

Tourist said that the edge bends which makes the knife seem dull. So. when I'm cutting meat, the edge is bending? How can that happen? Steel is very hard and meat is very soft, right?”

These questions are VERY much general questions about how and why knives dull. I think this is a component part of the “maze of knife attributes” as you called it.

I am trying to focus on this ONE PART of the “maze,” before moving on to other parts so I can understand when you are sharing your expertise. I believe clarity comes from focus.

[The Tourist]

Rhodemaster, be patient. You will get the info you need.

But I believe we should approach this more as a tutorial. This is now akin to teaching someone how to drive, and before the car is even moving or the parking brake released, the student wants info on ABS.

In a nutshell, knives dull quickly because the alloy is "soft" due to its heat treatment, or the composition of the steel does not contain the more superior (read: 'expensive') elements of things like vanadium, molybendum or manganese, or the cutler deliberately buys this steel to avoid wear to his stamping machines.

Softer steels wear quicker, and have poor edge retention--and bend easier from handling. And banging them on a poor cutting board, clanging them together in a sink or drawer and dishwashing them will bend them. (A dishwasher has a revolving jet spray which bounces the contents.)

As for the "polish" of an edge, that's an entire debate on its own. Some people simply prefer a rougher or more "toothy" edge. They like the way it 'grabs' when cutting. Some people prefer a mirror edge. Some alloys do not receive a benefit in a mirror finish, not can they keep it. Some alloys perform better and better as the edge attains increasing levels of refinement.

But as I stated, the reason for beginning with a cheap knife was to actually apply these techniques. Consider them a "before" picture in a weight-loss ad. That knock-off had all of the poor attributes of a failure waiting to happen. It had little, if any additional elements other than chromium, which makes it "stainless." The blade blank was stamped. To be 'stamped,' it needed to be soft. And when sharpened, it could not hold an edge.

In other words, I demonstrated a baseline, simply that.

If you haven't yet, please watch SEE THE VIDEO at:

http://www.altonbrown.com/shun/shun_edge.html

[Rhodemaster]

Tourist...

I'm asking for clarification on things you have already said, you cannot build a house on an unstable foundation and moving on with less than a basic understanding of what we have covered seems to be leaving out essential blocks of knowledge.

I think learning about alloying steel at this point would be, as you so correctly put it, discussing the functional aspects of ABS when we're talking about learning to drive. That would definitely confuse the issue. I also think discussing “toothy” and mirror edges are a bit beyond the point of this discussion as well and so I'll try not to become sidetracked with such discussions.

As I understand what you said, knives dull quickly because they are of a softer material.

You've also explained that the edge will bend or roll from improper handling and “banging them on a poor cutting board.”

Here's a point where I am again becoming confused by the information here.

JoeC said that European Knives use softer steel than the Japanese Knives; he also said “ Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. “

SO.... European knives are made of steel that will dull more quickly but are designed so that they can better withstand mishandling. Do I have this correct?

You still haven't answered the question I asked about what makes the knife go dull?

Locutus said that a cheap knife will become dull from cutting meat and I assumed (incorrectly?) that the edge was somehow bending but now you're telling me that the edge is bending because if improper handling.

You talked about how the cheap knife went dull after your wife cut zucchini with it. You said:

“The tip and the edge about an inch back still seemed crisp. The portion from the ricasso forward about two inches felt the same. However, that "middle area" already had the sensation of being worn. There were a few pieces of zuchini in the sink, and made some slices.

Yes, the knife still sliced. The rear portion of the blade did so quite easily. But those strokes had a familiar "drag" feeling I've come to know as a degradation of the edge. “

Maybe I'm not asking the question correctly. I'll try to use your expert terminology to make the question more clear in hope of receiving an answer.

What caused “ he sensation of being worn,” and “a familiar "drag" feeling I've come to know as a degradation of the edge”?

What adds to this confusion is your talk of angles on knives.

Are the angles only there to prevent the edge from bending when the knife is mishandled or misused? If I were very careful to only use and store my knives properly, couldn't I use the same angle as on a razor blade on my knives?

[joec]

JoeC said that European Knives use softer steel than the Japanese Knives; he also said “ Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. “

SO.... European knives are made of steel that will dull more quickly but are designed so that they can better withstand mishandling. Do I have this correct?


That is basically what I meant, they won't stay sharp as long as a harder steel knife will nor can them take the acute angles when sharpening as the harder knife. The harder knife is easier to chip while the heavier Euro knives edges will roll. It is a toss up between the two as both have their advantages and disadvantages it really depends on what you want to cut.

[Locutus]

Rhodemaster,

What is your "screen name" on KnifeForums? :whistle:

[The Tourist]

Tourist...SO.... European knives are made of steel that will dull more quickly but are designed so that they can better withstand mishandling. Do I have this correct?

Yes, that's the answer--for that segment of the debate. I wish you would view the Alton Brown video.

[Rhodemaster]

Rhodemaster,

What is your "screen name" on KnifeForums? :whistle:

What? I don't understand your question.

[The Tourist]

What? I don't understand your question.

Simple. People have many different names or handles depending on the forum. I've had four different names over the years. In fact, I have several different names in real life.--Chico

[Locutus]

Never mind. :tongue:

[Rhodemaster]

Why would I have a different name on Knifeforums? Is that supposed to be a joke, I don't get it.

[Rhodemaster]

Tourist...

Alton Brown's video is very entertaining but I need more clarification.

Alton “dulled” his knife by using an electric knife on a piece of foam, that was entertaining but I'm asking you to share some of your expertise in explaining how a knife becomes dull when cutting beef and zucchini.

He also showed the different angles on the edge but really didn't explain why each angle is selected.

I'm actually more confused than enlightened at this point.

Alton Brown's video is a promotion for his Shun Knives and he does a very good job of explaining why I should buy his knives but that's not answering my questions.

Can you answer them for me?

[Locutus]

Rhodemaster, it is quite obvious, to me at least, that from your excellent command of the English language used in your posts that you are not having any trouble understanding the very simple, and straightforward answers to your questions.

I am happy to answer anyone's questions to the best of my limited ability, but when I am dealing with an obviously educated person, who feigns failure to comprehend the very language which he uses so well, I won't play anymore.

[Rhodemaster]

Locutus,

Frankly, I do understand English both the written and unwritten words.

I don't know what I did to cause you to want to start a fight with me but I will assure you that it was not my goal.

I came across this thread with Tourist talking about knives. He seems like an expert and I'm seeking knowledge. There is no one better to ask questions of than an expert in that field.

I continue to ask the same question because the question isn't being answered.

I don't understand why it's so difficult for me to receive a simple and straightforward answer to a question.

This would be simple to resolve, how about we let Tourist share his expertise by answering these questions. He is a professional in the industry so he must have the knowledge.

These are the questions I'm still asking, I would appreciate, as Locutus put it, simple straight forward answers to them. I'll simplify the questions and make them as general as possible so we're not becoming overly specific.

First:

How does a knife become dull cutting things such as meat and soft vegetables (like zuchinni)?

Second:

JoeC finally explained the purpose behind different angles on edges. They are chosen for the task the knife is made for. That makes sense. What is confusing is the references to hard and soft steel and how that relates to angles. So here's the question:

Why wouldn't you have chosen a more obtuse angle for the knife used to cut zucchini and more specifically, how is the angle chosen?

And last:

How does the angle on an edge effect the ability to remain sharp? This is assuming that dull is different from bent.

I hope the frustration I'm sensing in Locutus' post isn't going to prevent me from receiving the answers to these questions. An expert should be able to explain the basics of his field to a layman, after all he was once a layman as well

[joec]

First:

How does a knife become dull cutting things such as meat and soft vegetables (like zuchinni)?

Second:

JoeC finally explained the purpose behind different angles on edges. They are chosen for the task the knife is made for. That makes sense. What is confusing is the references to hard and soft steel and how that relates to angles. So here's the question:

Why wouldn't you have chosen a more obtuse angle for the knife used to cut zucchini and more specifically, how is the angle chosen?

And last:

How does the angle on an edge effect the ability to remain sharp? This is assuming that dull is different from bent.



I will give it a try if you are OK with it other wise I will let Chico answer for himself if you prefer.

First all knives get dull regardless of what you cut with them. Every thing you will cut be it plastic rap on a package of meat or the meat inside will dull the edge a bit every time you use the knife. A knife over time will become dull even if not used just sitting in a block now that will take a lot of time but normal oxidation will cause that. There is no such thing as a blade that will stay sharp forever but if you find one I will be the second person in line to buy one.

Now as for meat and vegetables in particular in regards to this question, both have grit in some form or other in the case of a vegetable, microscopic particles of grit such as sand or acids in the cells themselves. Acids even mild ones will degrade an edge over time. An onion for example contains sulfuric acids that will degrade any steel over time. Meats also contain small amounts of corrosives elements such as alkaline, acids etc that can corrode an edge. Now with that said some steels sold in kitchen knives are not suited for the task period regardless of how shinny and neat they look.

A steels hardness are based on a scale which there are several of them by the way. The Rockwell scale is most used in regards to cutting tools. A Wusthof chef's knife will be about HRC 56 on that scale while a Hattori HD will be HRC 61. Now this scale without too much detail by itself doesn't mean much but there are big differences in hardness between HRC 56 and 57 as it is a scale on a curve. Man do I hope I didn't confuse you there but that is what is meant by soft steel and hard steels.

The harder the steel the thinner a blade can be made and the more acute the edge can be sharpened. Again there are trade offs for it all with advantages and disadvantages. Harder means more brittle while softer means easier to bend. A good example is a sword. You can't make one out of most kitchen cutlery steels as it would shatter. Swords as axes are softer steel than any functional knife but they are capable of remove limbs with little effort and not real obtuse edges.

So to sum this up the steel, level of hardness, knife geometry in relation to what the job at hand is will dictate the edge required to do the job. In a kitchen it really isn't that big a deal other than a good quality sharp knife will slice food and a poorly designed knife will not.

[Rhodemaster]

Joe, thanks for the response, that's why I didn't want to chase you out of the conversation.

The answers are pretty clear at this point with one fine point that came up from your answers.

I'd like Tourist to explain this to me....

Does the angle have anything to do with the knife staying sharp? I know it helps keep the edge from bending, but what about staying sharp?

and I guess I lied because there is another one.

How did you decide on the angle you sharpened the knife in question at? Could it be that a different angle would allow the "cheap" knife to perform better?

[The Tourist]

Alton Brown tried to simulate two edge conditions.

The first was a simple bend from rougher handling. The edge was still there, and it could be coaxed back into place.

The purpose of trimming the giant foam knife was to simulate a knife with no edge. It's a condition that happens over time. In fact, you can find it yourself. If you have a knife that is dull, find a lamp with a strong beam, like one of those reading lamps. Turn the knife upwards so the edge is pointed directly to you, and you will find light reflected up to you on the edge.

In other words, there's a flat spot. On a sharp knife, you will see no light. I use this technique to check the edge as I sharpen. I have a 'soft hand' in the jargon of the tinkers. I only remove the least amount of metal I can during a repair.

He compared and contrasted two distinct types of conditions on why a knife doesn't cut as it would in a pristine condition.

As for hardness, a higher Rockwell rating is a singular component of overall edge retention. There are several factors--that's why Alton Brown explained the numerous elements added to an alloy. If you have a brittle alloy--but a higher Rc, the knife can chip its edge.

Most of the knife guys here use a knife to slice. When you're slicing you are using a more tender touch, as opposed to chopping. A cleaver does have a more obtuse angle.

This is why most gyutos (chefs knives) are sharpened at a wider angle than a nakiri, which is used just for vegetables.

And compromises are a necessary problem. There is a Japanese knife called a "santuko." I've heard it really means 'three men in a boat,' but the important thing is that 'san' is Japanese for three. The santuko does three things.

The first third near the tip slices, the mid part is a like a gyuto, and the back third is for "heel chopping." (The tip is pressed into the board, and the knife chops by raising and lowering the rear of the blade.)

Three distinct jobs with one edge. I try to keep that kind of a knife around 12 to 15 degrees--and I admit I have some jackknives that a finer edge. But most real-deal Japanese santukos are at about Rc 62, and lead trouble free lives.

And a good cutting board is part of this equation.

[joec]

Joe, thanks for the response, that's why I didn't want to chase you out of the conversation.

The answers are pretty clear at this point with one fine point that came up from your answers.

I'd like Tourist to explain this to me....

Does the angle have anything to do with the knife staying sharp? I know it helps keep the edge from bending, but what about staying sharp?

and I guess I lied because there is another one.

How did you decide on the angle you sharpened the knife in question at? Could it be that a different angle would allow the "cheap" knife to perform better?


I'll leave the first part to Chico about the edge angle and staying sharp.

Now here is how I decide the angle to sharpen at. I follow what the manufacture put on the knife to start and keep that for awhile. As I get used to the steel in the blade, its profile etc when it comes time to thin it I will then experiment with the edge angle a bit usually by making it a bit more acute or leaving it at the angle I thinned at. You can tell when a knife needs thinning when what it used to fall through starts to bind a bit or you apply more pressure to get through it. Now if it chips or rolls it needs a more obtuse angle at which point simply change it a bit if it doesn't cut better than it did when first received I give it a more acute edge.

Now over time I've learned the knives I own and what it takes to keep them in laser sharp shape. One other note as every knife I get regardless of who makes it I sharpen it before using it. Now I don't take it to my course stones but do start about about a 1K grit and work up. Most knife makers rarely sharpen a new knife higher than about 700x grit with few exceptions. I like my kitchen knives taken for the most part a lot higher and will get into the reasons at your request just don't want to add more to this tread that hasn't been asked yet though I'm sure you will eventually. :mrgreen:

[The Tourist]

I'm beginnng to think that perhaps we should have started with santukos.

"Rachael Ray vs The Tourist."

Moderator: When does a German made knife constructed of Chinese steel become Japanese?

Moderator: Chico, we'll have you begin. When does this knife become Japanese...

The Tourist: When you have your own TV show...

[Rhodemaster]

Tourist,

Thanks for the response.... I'm beginning to “get it.” I may not be the fastest student in the class, but I certainly show up every day and pay attention.

Between Joe and you, I think I understand that the edge “wears” over time from corrosion and such. A while back Locutus said that cutting up 3 or 4 pounds of meat would dull a knife. The acids in beef are that strong as to eat away steel in that short a time?

Maybe I'll become a vegetarian, except that the zucchini your wife cut up must have been even more acidic because it only took one of them to dull the knife. Can you live on water alone?

Now I know that you're an expert at sharpening kitchen knives so this may be outside your realm but I'll ask anyway.

What about cutting paper? I don't think there are acids in paper that will eat the steel, so how does cutting paper make a knife dull?

Thanks for being understanding, I really want to come to understand this

[joec]

Tourist,

Thanks for the response.... I'm beginning to “get it.” I may not be the fastest student in the class, but I certainly show up every day and pay attention.

Between Joe and you, I think I understand that the edge “wears” over time from corrosion and such. A while back Locutus said that cutting up 3 or 4 pounds of meat would dull a knife. The acids in beef are that strong as to eat away steel in that short a time?

Maybe I'll become a vegetarian, except that the zucchini your wife cut up must have been even more acidic because it only took one of them to dull the knife. Can you live on water alone?

Now I know that you're an expert at sharpening kitchen knives so this may be outside your realm but I'll ask anyway.

What about cutting paper? I don't think there are acids in paper that will eat the steel, so how does cutting paper make a knife dull?

Thanks for being understanding, I really want to come to understand this

:D I wouldn't worry much about the acids and alkaline in the food we eat for the most part unless your stomach is steel lined. Sorry I just couldn't resist that come back. You want to have some fun take a piece of raw liver and drop it into a glass of coke and watch it dissolve.

[The Tourist]

Tourist, The acids in beef are that strong as to eat away steel in that short a time?

When we say "wear," we mean by abrasion, not by acid. And yes, a metal knife can wear itself dull within one job. In fact, I know of a great many hunters who hold a sharpening stone in their left hand as they field dress or bone a deer with a knife in their right hand.

Now I know that you're an expert at sharpening kitchen knives

At the very least! Actually I am a zen guru in the disciplines of romance, V-twin engines from 1936 forward, 100% blue agave tequila, ethnic familial negotitions with anyone other than my Aunt Clara, and the fine art of absconding with any ruminat sheep belonging to hobbyist forum moderators.

What about cutting paper?

Paper in America usually has fine white powder (made from stone) impregnated into the construction to enhance the snow white color. Cutting paper is tantamount to rubbing the edge of a knife on a rock. Cardboard can actually be worse.

[Rhodemaster]

Now we're talking about abrasion dulling a knife instead of acids...

That raises a question.

You said:

"The purpose of trimming the giant foam knife was to simulate a knife with no edge. It's a condition that happens over time. In fact, you can find it yourself. If you have a knife that is dull, find a lamp with a strong beam, like one of those reading lamps. Turn the knife upwards so the edge is pointed directly to you, and you will find light reflected up to you on the edge.

In other words, there's a flat spot. On a sharp knife, you will see no light."

So a dull knife is flat on the edge, caused by abrasion.

Since the edge is formed by the intersection of the two angles you talk about, why would the edge change to flat?

Mountains don't become plateaus over time, they become more gentle mountains.

I'm also confused about the abrasiveness of meat. How can meat be so abrasive that it dulls knives to the degree you mention?

"In fact, I know of a great many hunters who hold a sharpening stone in their left hand as they field dress or bone a deer with a knife in their right hand."

I would think that something that abrasive wouldn't feel as smooth to the touch. Is that for real? Why don't they make hunting knives out of something stronger?

[The Tourist]

Actually, it's amazing that knife edges don't wear away faster. Obviously, they are very thin--minor fractions of an inch thick. In the case of black obsidian knives I've heard that the edge is actually only "molecules wide."

The edge is a wedge. The area directly behind the edge is wider, and then wider still as edge wears. This wider area is what reflects light. It is quite blunt and flat, and easily reflects light. And yes, it wears by cutting food, even "softer" foods like beef.

(Take a knife of your own, examine it in the light. Out of box it was sharp, now it reflects light. Your own knife has "worn away" while in your own hand, and you only cut soft things.)

Yes, a knife can go dead flat within a day. That's a combination of poor quality soft steel and handling. But a good knife, properly sharpened with good care can go several months. In the case of Mr. Brown's collection, with many knives he spreads out the work load.

For him, a year can be a correct period of time.

BTW, the real answer here is never to let a knife go dead flat. I'm always checking my personal knives. Caught in time, a knife with any form of degradation can be "brought back" with steels or strops.

If a knife is pushed beyond a prudent condition, you have to remove metal with a stone.

[Rhodemaster]

"The area directly behind the edge is wider, and then wider still as edge wears."

The area behind the edge being the angles we were talking about?

[The Tourist]

"The area directly behind the edge is wider, and then wider still as edge wears."

The area behind the edge being the angles we were talking about?

If you look at the knife dead on from the front, the basic shape of a knife is a very skinny triangle.

Given time, that tip will wear away and the shape will become a trapezoid. The flat top part is the plane that relects light. The edge is now missing, and the area which is being used to cut is the area created behind that original edge.

[Doc]

Awesome thread guys!!! We all learn from these questions and answers. :thumb:

[The Tourist]

Ya' know, Doc, I think I needed it as much as anyone.

It's all too easy to look at a knife, disgnose the problematic issues, select a stone by rote, "dunk it and plunk it."

One client watched me sharpen once and stated, "Why do you tense your forearm and lightly twist your wrist on some portions of the knife?"

I wasn't even aware I did that.

And new alloys come down the pike all of the time. Locutus just bought a new folder with an alloy I have never seen, much less have sharpened.

I had to go to a steel chart just to find out the components of the alloy. As we spoke that night we opined a system of sharpening, but I could not say for certain what is a knowing course of action.

Asking penetrating questions gets the juices flowing. Believe it or not there are scores of people who opt for mundane steel, and then seriously care for their knives by rubbing them on a mouse-pad covered in sandpaper. And they don't even really know why.

Now, if JoeC told me he just bought a new bundle of sandpaper, it wouldn't bother me one bit. He studies. He has numerous knives. He probably studies more than I do. Put he assesses his position and acts from a point of understanding.

But if this thread has proven one thing to me it's that "two planes forming an edge" requires intense consideration.

And it's incredibly hard on trying to be a non-guru.:dizzy:

[joec]

Now, if JoeC told me he just bought a new bundle of sandpaper, it wouldn't bother me one bit. He studies. He has numerous knives. He probably studies more than I do. Put he assesses his position and acts from a point of understanding.

But if this thread has proven one thing to me it's that "two planes forming an edge" requires intense consideration.

And it's incredibly hard on trying to be a non-guru.:dizzy:

Nope no sand paper but did get my new 2 pieces of the new HA Scrubbed Bull Leather Pads and the 4 oz bottle of .25 micron HA diamond spray from Dave today. :thumb:

[Rhodemaster]

Tourist....

I did pay attention in geometry, and received good grades in it.

You said:

"If you look at the knife dead on from the front, the basic shape of a knife is a very skinny triangle.

Given time, that tip will wear away and the shape will become a trapezoid. The flat top part is the plane that relects light. The edge is now missing, and the area which is being used to cut is the area created behind that original edge."

A triangle is a three sided shape, the trapezoid has four sides.

If I apply everything you have told me to this point, the knife wears through abrasion.

As the knife wears, wouldn't the triangle become smaller?

Where does the fourth side come from?

[The Tourist]

Where does the fourth side come from?

The pristine edge actually disappears. It becomes a flat spot. Four sides. What was the edge now reflects light.

[Rhodemaster]

As the "Pristine Edge" disappears, don't the sides of the triangle you described also disappear?

Wind wearing on a mountain will not change it into a plateau.

I could understand the edge becoming more rounded as it wears but how does it become flat?

[Locutus]

That's simple.

It becomes flat by some obnoxious troll like you banging it against his head. :boxing:

[Rhodemaster]

That's simple.

It becomes flat by some obnoxious troll like you banging it against his head. :boxing:

I do recognize that term.... and I take serious offense to it.

[The Tourist]

Rhodemaster, you are bogging down this discussion with many of the repetitive points discussed on the Alton Brown video. I know I've responded to the "wear issue" four or five times.

What you need to do is the same thing many people due when apporaching the issues surrounding sharpening and modern kitchen knives.

First, get a book on sharpening paying, special attention to the nomenclature of the knives themselves. A book on alloys and metallurgy wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

You have now reached the point where we have given you tools and direction, and the rest is up to you.

We need to resume interfacing with chefs and food hobbyists who need some additional info.

[Rhodemaster]

Tourist,

With Locutus blatantly insulting me on a public forum by calling me a Troll with no repercussions and you now dismissing me after providing absolutely no information more than I could receive from the Alton Brown video you continue to refer me to it's time for me to realize that there is NOTHING to learn here about knives and sharpening.

I have been nothing but polite here; the questions I have asked have been in an attempt to clarify the information you have provided. Your answers obfuscate rather than inform and your dismissing me raises question as to your actual knowledge. Perhaps someone with actual knowledge will come here and inform those who remain as your self proclaimed title of Tinker seems quite appropriate once one reads a dictionary.

Scotty, beam me up... The Tinker needs to try to impress the Chefs and Food Hobbyists and I'm just getting in the way.

[The Tourist]

Rhodemaster, we have actually tried to be polite. But your accusation as to who we are tells us who you are.

For example, the jokes we tell about gurus are just that, simple jokes. None of the tinkers have a B&M store, or teach adult education classes or even have the license to do that type of work. If I had that much free time I'd buy another Harley.

Here's an easy instance. I wrote: "the fine art of absconding with any ruminant sheep belonging to hobbyist forum moderators."

All that means is I drive moderators nuts. A 'ruminant sheep' is a goat. I get their goats. It's an idiomatic expression meaning I am an unrepentant sinner.

We're not bragging or picking fights or seeking the rarified air of 'sensei.'

As for being a 'tinker,' did you ever read the dictionary desciption:

noun> 1. a traveling mender of pots and kettles 2. chiefly derogatory a gypsy or other member of the traveling community.

My business card says that I am a "Itinerant Sharpener." I have a second set of tools in the front seat of my truck. If a client calls, I drive to his restaurant, hence 'itinerant.'

Just because you or your fellow home forum members don't understand the jokes or multi-syllable words isn't really my fault. The Borders Bookstore in my area is open for a wide range of hours. They have an excellent reference book section.

At the day's end, how seriously do you want me to take the internet? For 38 years I have sat inside the breakroom of various Harley shops in Madison area. We eat hotdogs, we dunk donuts, worry about our kids and shine up a little chrome. And everyone knows where we are--friend and enemy.

No enemy has shown up yet, not in almost four decades. I can only surmise that the insults I hear are hot air.

[Doc]

Tourist,

With Locutus blatantly insulting me on a public forum by calling me a Troll with no repercussions and you now dismissing me after providing absolutely no information more than I could receive from the Alton Brown video you continue to refer me to ...

Chico has been very up front with you and given you plenty of good info. If you saw the video in question and know he is giving you no more than the video, then it sure seems to me the label troll fits. If you know all this why did you come here only to barrage Chico with question after question? Besides looking up Tinker as Chico suggested perhaps you should look up the meaning of troll.
We run this forum differently than others you might have had your way on. We let your words speak for themselves. Take the time to reread what you've posted in this thread. .....Naaa you won't do that, you know why you came here and what your goal is. Well .....so do I.

[cooking4fun]

Chico -

Answer me a few questions:

How long have you been a professional sharpener?

How much do you charge to sharpen an 8" chef's knife that is in good condition and purely needs the edge refined. No thinning, no great polish, just a good sharpening?

How do you handle a full bolstered kitchen knife when the edge creeps up past the bolster at the heel?

In general, what are the advantages and disadvantages of a gyuto over a Western style chef's knife?

The point of this thread was initially a grouping of 3 different knives that you used to represent what many home's have. How did you come to pick those three knives?

How do you detect a burr formed with a stone with a grit higher than 4,000 grit JIS?

These are just a few of the many questions I have for you as a professional sharpener.

Please refrain from doing anything but directly answering the questions. Please don't dance around them with fancy words and stories about bikers and stories about your childhood.....just answer the questions. I'm sincerely looking for information here that I've been unable to find elsewhere.

Thanks!!!

[Doc]

Hi cooking4fun. Welcome to Net Cooking Talk. how did you find us?

Chico must be quite the master to have this type of following. Hats off to Chico aka The Tourist!!! :tiphat: :clap: :beer:

[cooking4fun]

Thanks for the welcome Doc!

I simply did a search for knife sharpening and this forum came up.

[Doc]

Thanks for the welcome Doc!

I simply did a search for knife sharpening and this forum came up.
Kewl. I love google!!!! :D

Enjoy and post often. :thumb:

[D_R_Sharpening]

I registered here, and am posting now, just to let folks know that I'm neither "Rhodemaster" nor "cooking4fun".

I was sent an email letting me know that these folks are asking questions (here at NC) of The Tourist which may be giving off the impression that I may be posting/posing as someone I'm not.

I have no interest in being here other than letting you all know (mostly the guys I know from KF) that it's not me messing about and if I had something to say I'd be here under this same screenname that you all know me as. I hope this has cleared the air as I don't wish to have my name associated with this discussion on any level.

That's all I've got to say so thanks for your time.

Dave

[noobietinker]

Hi to Tourist! I a big fan of you over at the knifeforum. I wish you never got banned. I looking for information for using the edgepro on profffessional tinkering. Can this be a good tool for this? I hear that it is not for repairs and you need other tools for that. Can you give advice on this Truist? I could sure use your help. Thank you

[vai777]

Chico -

Answer me a few questions:

How long have you been a professional sharpener?

How much do you charge to sharpen an 8" chef's knife that is in good condition and purely needs the edge refined. No thinning, no great polish, just a good sharpening?

How do you handle a full bolstered kitchen knife when the edge creeps up past the bolster at the heel?

In general, what are the advantages and disadvantages of a gyuto over a Western style chef's knife?

The point of this thread was initially a grouping of 3 different knives that you used to represent what many home's have. How did you come to pick those three knives?

How do you detect a burr formed with a stone with a grit higher than 4,000 grit JIS?

These are just a few of the many questions I have for you as a professional sharpener.

Please refrain from doing anything but directly answering the questions. Please don't dance around them with fancy words and stories about bikers and stories about your childhood.....just answer the questions. I'm sincerely looking for information here that I've been unable to find elsewhere.

Thanks!!!










Ohh , I can't wait to see him skirt around these answers now. Why even bother asking him a question? It's just the same ol' BS.

[noobietinker]

I just watch Elton Brown video and learned lot. Is he who taught you to tinker Toutist?

[vai777]

Noobie, You have alot to learn my friend. Do me a favor and disregard everything you ever read from The Tourist. It's complete nonsense. Ohh and by the way- Please do us all a favor and stop posting on knifeforums.com. The world would be a better place.

[noobietinker]

vai you are a nasty person. I onmly lurk at the knifeforums because I not yet a professsional tinker. I don't earn the right to post there yet. Please leaf Toruist alone he tells the truth for us to read.

[noobietinker]

Back to topic,,,,,Torist how do you fix this with your edgpro tool?

[vai777]

Ok Noobie I'll play nice for you. Maybe I should prance around and talk about laminates like i know what i'm talking about. I'll throw some cheap crkt knock-offs in the freezer while i'm at it too. Maybe if i start sharpening under water I won't have to soak my stones. Ohh wait, That's right. Chico doesn't even use stones. He uses an edge pro. My bad. :oops: Maybe if I practice real hard I too can charge 200 dollars to sharpen a 50 dollar knife. It'll be buttery I'm sure. Ohh sorry i mant toasty:oops: Boy i'm making alot of mistakes in this post. I better quit while I'm ahead.

[noobietinker]

Hey I just buy a big freezer for knifes tinkering I will do. I think Tourist is smart with this. What makes no sense to you? :bangin:

[noobietinker]

Maybe if i start sharpening under water I won't have to soak my stones. Ohh wait, That's right. Chico doesn't even use stones. He uses an edge pro. .


Hey Torist used the edgepro and maybe I will to so please be nice to it. I know it is a kind of toy for proffessional tinker to use so maybe I wont used it to. How would you use what?

[vai777]

Noobie-What the hell country or should i say planet are you from? Putting a blade in the freezer to sharpen it is simply retarded. Why put it in the freezer? According to your wise mentor- It just works magically. Yeah, Okay. I'll believe that. Give us some proof you get better results ohh wise tinker. I won't be holding my breath. I can only do that for about 2 and a half minutes these days.

[noobietinker]

Torist has pretty shiny edge pictures of razel knife so he tinker good I think. I know what he said to be true because he be tinkering.

What I from is no busyness of you!

[sattie]

I hate to step into something that admittedly I know very little about. But this thread seems to be going down a road that needs to have the 'DEAD END' sign put up. With that being said, this thread will be closed.