rib question ...

[Love2"Q"]

i always make baby back ribs ...
my family just does not care for spares .. so any way ...
the last two times i made ribs i did it the exact same way as
always .. 225ish for 2 hours .. then 2 hours in foil ..
then maybe an hour out of foil to finish ..
but they were smoked to the bone ..
they were cooked through .. but they were pink all the
way to the bone .. and my wife was not into it ..
i am having an over smoke issue .. they had a smidgen of
bitterness to them .. i used apple and royal oak
lump for fuel ...
so what are your ways for ribs .. i want to tweak it a bit ..
i read in a weber cook book the 2 hours at 300 indirect is all
it takes ..
any help is greatly appreciated ..

[Keltin]

Babybacks are so tender anyway, I typically just grill them direct over medium coals.

But you can easily defeat over smoking by not adding wood. You’re using lump which will naturally smoke and produce a smoke ring. Lump will give you that “thin blue smoke” you’ve heard of. Adding whole wood to that gives you the heavy “white smoke”.

If using lump, only add a little wood during the first hour, then no more. Your lump will take care of the rest. You could even try smoking with just the lump and don’t add any other wood. The thin blue smoke from the lump alone should make some nice babybacks.

Either that, or switch to briquettes, and use smoke the first 2 hours (2 small additions is all) and no more.

The bitterness is creosote build up. This happens when there is too much white smoke rolling around in the chamber and it can’t escape quickly enough. It also happens when the meat is cold and the white smoke is heavy….like in the first 30 minutes of smoking. Most will leave the meat out on the counter to come to room temp, and slowly add wood as you smoke. As long as the smoke isn’t too heavy, and it can escape via the top vent, it won’t condensate into creosote on the meat.

[Love2"Q"]

keltin .. i only add wood for the first hour ..
and even then its one or two chunks ...
dont think creasote is an issue .. i have delt with that
before .. i think i am going to try indirect this weekend ..

[Keltin]

Have you tried using just the lump? Just lump over a few hours might give you what you're looking for with no need of extra added wood? I mean, lump is just burning and smoldering wood, so it has the smoke there already. Might be worth a shot?

[Love2"Q"]

Have you tried using just the lump? Just lump over a few hours might give you what you're looking for with no need of extra added wood? I mean, lump is just burning and smoldering wood, so it has the smoke there already. Might be worth a shot?
thats what i have been thinking ...
it also could be temp spikes and dips .. this only happend
this winter ..
i am going to play around a bit this weekend ..
thanks for the outside observation ..

[Keltin]

thats what i have been thinking ...
it also could be temp spikes and dips .. this only happend
this winter ..
i am going to play around a bit this weekend ..
thanks for the outside observation ..

Let us know how it turns out!!! I love data and feedback from these tests! :thumb:

[BamsBBQ]

it also depends on the type of wood you are using...

i find that when i cook spares or babybacks for my taste, if i use mesquite or hickory, i get that really smokey flavor..

all my ribs now get Q'd with cherry followed by apple and maple. the smoke flavor is not so strong but still there.

are you using store bought wood chunks or non commercial wood? if using non-commercial wood, the wood may still be green and not seasoned enough.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/4332/p020hd0.jpg

[Love2"Q"]

its store bought wood chunks ...
all i really use is either apple or cherry ...

[High Cheese]

I always smoke indirect using either all apple, oak or lump. If I use lump, I flavor with 3-4 chunks of mesquite or hickory after the first hour. Temp spikes like you said can cause a bitter taste, you really have to pay attention during winter. Keep the exhaust fully open and regulate the heat with only the intake. I never wrap my ribs with foil, but I mop them about every 30 minutes. I use he tong test to check for doneness.

[BamsBBQ]

I always smoke indirect using either all apple, oak or lump. If I use lump, I flavor with 3-4 chunks of mesquite or hickory after the first hour. Temp spikes like you said can cause a bitter taste, you really have to pay attention during winter. Keep the exhaust fully open and regulate the heat with only the intake. I never wrap my ribs with foil, but I mop them about every 30 minutes. I use he tong test to check for doneness.
:agree:

also if your wood is catching fire and not smoldering, that dreaded white smoke appears and sometimes you dont even see it.

on my big pit smoker, there is hardly any smoke coming from the stacks, but the end result still tastes smokey.

i only wrap my ribs if somebody wants fall off the bone meat...

[Love2"Q"]

ok .. tried cooking them indirect at about 300 or so ..
threw a couple chunks of apple on during the first hour ..
took about two and a half hours and they were done ..
and they were fantastic .. not the smoke ring i was looking
for but they were super tasty .. and the wife was happy:mrgreen::mrgreen:

so everyone was happy ...
slathered some in honey for the boy ..
BBQ sauce for the wifey ..
and rasberry chipotle for me ..
outstanding ..

[BamsBBQ]

looks like some awesome eats there:applause::a1:

ok .. tried cooking them indirect at about 300 or so ..
threw a couple chunks of apple on during the first hour ..
took about two and a half hours and they were done ..
and they were fantastic .. not the smoke ring i was looking
for but they were super tasty .. and the wife was happy:mrgreen::mrgreen:

so everyone was happy ...
slathered some in honey for the boy ..
BBQ sauce for the wifey ..
and rasberry chipotle for me ..
outstanding ..

[Keltin]

Looks fantastic! Wonderful job!!! :thumb:

[chowhound]

Ditto. Great job/fantastic looking ribs.
I've taken to not wrapping babybacks anymore, they get too "fall off the bone" for me. I can get the same texture either smoking them or grilling indirect, but using the BBQ definitely gives them a smokier taste through and through. Tossing foil pouches of chips on the ducane just isn't the same, but a lot easier in winter.

[Love2"Q"]

thanks all .. think my original problem was two things ..
over cooking .. and to long in foil ..
these had the texture that i was looking for ..
thanks a bunch for everyones help ..
and if you see a bottle of rasberry chipotle at your
store .. grab some .. it is great on ribs and wings ..

[BamsBBQ]

since i am a cheap sort of person..lol

i am going to try substituting raspberry preserves for the cherries in this recipe

http://www.netcookingtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3957

[chowhound]

thanks all .. think my original problem was two things ..
over cooking .. and to long in foil ..
these had the texture that i was looking for ..
thanks a bunch for everyones help ..
and if you see a bottle of rasberry chipotle at your
store .. grab some .. it is great on ribs and wings ..

So are you saying that overcooking led to all pink rib meat, or just that fall off the bone texture?
In post #11 you said, "not the smoke ring i was looking
for but they were super tasty". What kind of smoke ring did you get?
I'm asking because yesterday, my ribs came out pink thru and thru. And the texture was perfect, so I don't think they were overcooked. Real juicy and real pink (lol).
I'm wondering if I used too much smoke, or perhaps not foiling them left them exposed to the smoke longer before it burnt out. I know I made up larger packets of wood chips than I usually use.... I don't know why, but I'm thinking that was it? Since it was just me, I certainly didn't mind them being all pink looking and there wasn't anything wrong with the taste, but now I'm trying to figure out why the difference :huh: This is my first time with them having the all pink look.

[Keltin]

That’s just heavy smoke Chow. It’s happened to me several times as well. As long as you liked the taste and weren’t over-powered by it, then no problem. Were you using briquettes are lump coals?

[GrillinFool]

MmmmmMmmmmm Ribs....That's all I got

[BamsBBQ]

they look great chow...

if you dont mind them being that pink and they are not over smokey tasting, then you made some real good eats.. i wouldnt pass up eating your ribs right now.lol

if i am going to foil, when the ribs are ready the meat pulls back from the bone about 1/4". thats the last time they will see smoke. sometimes they have good smoke rings, sometimes they dont but they all taste the same.

when i dont foil like Chowhounds ribs(which made me crave some ribs), they are generally alot more pink because more smoke gets to them. also if you rubbed them and let them marinate, they are going to be alot more pink. think easter ham....lol

another note is that you are cooking them at 300* which in my opinion is a little too high to get a decent smoke ring. cut down the temp about 50 degrees and you will see a noticable bigger smoke ring.

[chowhound]

hmmm, so the pink is from the extra smoke then. I went back and reread a couple times and couldn't put my finger on a definitive answer. Thanks.

It was mostly apple with a little hickory, so not overbearing at all. To me anyway.

Briquettes, Keltin. I get a much more even and longer burn with briquettes. I had six bags of a presumably rated high lump and kissed the empty spot on my porch when it was all gone (lol).

These were cooked at 235, Bam. 2-1/2 hours nothing but the rub and 1-1/2 hours brushed with sauce twice, at the beginning and 30 minutes before I pulled them.

[GrillinFool]

they look great chow...

if you dont mind them being that pink and they are not over smokey tasting, then you made some real good eats.. i wouldnt pass up eating your ribs right now.lol

if i am going to foil, when the ribs are ready the meat pulls back from the bone about 1/4". thats the last time they will see smoke. sometimes they have good smoke rings, sometimes they dont but they all taste the same.

when i dont foil like Chowhounds ribs(which made me crave some ribs), they are generally alot more pink because more smoke gets to them. also if you rubbed them and let them marinate, they are going to be alot more pink. think easter ham....lol

another note is that you are cooking them at 300* which in my opinion is a little too high to get a decent smoke ring. cut down the temp about 50 degrees and you will see a noticable bigger smoke ring.


Good advice here. I am also confused as to why sometimes there is a massive smoke ring and others there is none. Sometimes it doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. But that's where we get to keep testing theories and enjoying some good Q

[joec]

It seems with my smoker I get about a 1/4" to 3/8" smoke ring every time. It might be I use propane to control the heat so it stays gives a very steady even burn. When I used charcoal and wood I never got a consistent ring and many times none.

[Keltin]

Ok, technically, the smoke ring is from the smoldering wood and NOT the smoke. It’s more to do with the combustion of the wood. When the wood smolders it produces nitrogen dioxide. When nitrogen dioxide mixes with water in the meat, it will produce nitric acid. The nitric acid sinks through the skin of the meat and causes the pink discoloration.

You can increase the smoke ring by soaking your wood in water so that more water is available to make more nitric acid. Water smokers have a water pan which will steam making more water available. You can mop your meat, and the extra moisture will help.

And if your dry rub has salt or a tenderizer in it, then you are loading the surface of the meat with nitrogen dioxide giving it a great head start. That’s why tenderizers like Morton’s Tender Quick are illegal in most professional cook-offs.

So, it is possible to have A LOT of smoke and very little smoke ring, or have a little smoke and a lot of smoke ring. It all depends on how your wood combusts, and if there is water available to form nitric acid.

That’s why I asked about the lump coal. Since it is basically half-burned wood, using it increases the amount of combustible wood, and if there is water available, then nitric acid will form. You can actually get a good smoke ring from just lump coal if the meat and cooking chamber has enough moisture.

I’ve even gotten smoke rings from just briquettes when using certain tenderizers or mops on various cuts of pork and beef when grilling (not smoking).

[chowhound]

It seems with my smoker I get about a 1/4" to 3/8" smoke ring every time. It might be I use propane to control the heat so it stays gives a very steady even burn. When I used charcoal and wood I never got a consistent ring and many times none.

Joe, you mentioned sometimes none (no ring), and so did Bam. So was the meat white or pink? I consider my ribs in the pic to have no ring.

[chowhound]

Ok, technically, the smoke ring is from the smoldering wood and NOT the smoke. It’s more to do with the combustion of the wood. When the wood smolders it produces nitrogen dioxide. When nitrogen dioxide mixes with water in the meat, it will produce nitric acid. The nitric acid sinks through the skin of the meat and causes the pink discoloration.

You can increase the smoke ring by soaking your wood in water so that more water is available to make more nitric acid. Water smokers have a water pan which will steam making more water available. You can mop your meat, and the extra moisture will help.

And if your dry rub has salt or a tenderizer in it, then you are loading the surface of the meat with nitrogen dioxide giving it a great head start. That’s why tenderizers like Morton’s Tender Quick are illegal in most professional cook-offs.

So, it is possible to have A LOT of smoke and very little smoke ring, or have a little smoke and a lot of smoke ring. It all depends on how your wood combusts, and if there is water available to form nitric acid.

That’s why I asked about the lump coal. Since it is basically half-burned wood, using it increases the amount of combustible wood, and if there is water available, then nitric acid will form. You can actually get a good smoke ring from just lump coal if the meat and cooking chamber has enough moisture.

I’ve even gotten smoke rings from just briquettes when using certain tenderizers or mops on various cuts of pork and beef when grilling (not smoking).

Wasn't there a BBQer who had a vid saying that soaking the wood did absolutely nothing. The guy on the WSM Bullet site maybe? I've always read/heard that there were two trains of thought on this, and know I saw a vid one time of some guy disproving that soaking the wood increased the ring.

[GrillinFool]

I don't soak my wood at all. I pretty much only use chunks and just don't bother with the soaking...

[joec]

If you use chunks or chips I do soak the wood about 20 minutes. Now the reason I do this is so it smolders and doesn't ignite. Nothing complicated about that but dry wood burns and damp wood smolders making more smoke.

[GrillinFool]

If the fire is below 275 dry wood smokes....

[BamsBBQ]

You can increase the smoke ring by soaking your wood in water so that more water is available to make more nitric acid. Water smokers have a water pan which will steam making more water available. You can mop your meat, and the extra moisture will help.


i agree with most of what you said but this..lol

when you soak your wood you are not getting a clean burn. thus the white smoke or not so thin blue smoke. if you use chunks instead of chips, there will be no need to soak the wood.

the smoke rings also depends on the kind of wood you burning.. try cherry which is my favorite because it always gives me a very nice ring. i get consistent rings when using cherry wood. as well as the ring, cherry wood has an awesome flavor

http://www.barbecuen.com/faqs/woodchip.htm

[BamsBBQ]

when i use the big pit, we put the splits on the firebox to dry it out. dry wood equals better combustions and also makes sure the wood is dry

http://www.smoking-meat.com/2006/05/smoking-wood-chips-wet-or-dry.html

Q: Hi Jeff, I have a question about exactly how to use the wood chips when smoking. I have a grill with a side box for smoking. The brand of chips I have says to use the chips dry, but I always though they were supposed to be soaked--am I wrong here? Should I put the chips directly on the coals or should they be wrapped in foil? Also, do I need to add more chips as I'm smoking or just hot coals?

A: Lots of folks soak their wood chips however the water has to evaporate before it will begin to smolder and smoke so to me it does not make sense to soak them in most circumstances.

For the best results,I would take a good sized hand full and wrap them in foil.. poke a few holes in the top and lay it right on the coals.

You want to apply smoke for about 1/3 of the cooking time or until the meat reaches approximately 140 degrees. This may require several foil packages of chips depending on how long it takes them to burn up.

Make sure there is plenty of airflow to prevent the buildup of creosote.. just make sure your damper/intake are both open at least 3/4 of the way.

The trick is to build a small enough fire to allow that much airflow without the temps going off the charts with you.. if you have to close the intake down to 1/2 or then that is ok just make sure the damper stays open real good and you should be fine.

How much you can allow is different for every smoker and as you gain proficiency you will learn just how much you can do without oversmoking the meat.

You will need to add more hot coals periodically to maintain temperatures in the smoker.. I use a charcoal chimney (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=as2&path=ASIN/B00004U9VV&tag=smokingmeat-20&camp=1789&creative=9325) but you can use any type of metal container to make more hot coals and add them to the firebox as needed.

[joec]

If the fire is below 275 dry wood smokes....

Keep in mind GF I using a propane heat source directly on the wood box. Don't have a clue the temp it smokes at but know what the cooking temperatures are in the rest of the box as there I have thermometers. However to each their own I guess but I've tried it without soaking and had it burst into flames raising the cooking temps to too high of levels as well as burn the wood up in a minute or two. Soaking no problem just takes a bit longer for it to start making smoke but I don't put in the food until it is happening. One box filled will make 2 hours of solid smoke regardless of the wood used.

[Keltin]

Wasn't there a BBQer who had a vid saying that soaking the wood did absolutely nothing. The guy on the WSM Bullet site maybe? I've always read/heard that there were two trains of thought on this, and know I saw a vid one time of some guy disproving that soaking the wood increased the ring.

I’m sure it will depend on many things. What kind of rig are you using (vertical, horizontal, offset firebox, etc). Do you have any water in a pan already. Do you have a salt based tenderizer in your rub? Do you use a liquid based mop or mist.

When wood burns, it creates nitrogen dioxide. When nitrogen dioxide combines with water, it forms nitric acid. But, it has to be a 1-to-1 formation. If you have 8 parts nitrogen dioxide, and 28 parts water, you can only get 8 parts nitric acid. So in the end, your rig and methodology play a part. If you use a water smoker, that’s probably all the water you need. If you use a wet mop, then that could be enough.

But in the end, I ultimately soak my wood so that it smolders and doesn’t bust into a raging flame. Wet wood (coupled with proper use of the lower air intakes) is also handy for controlling an overly-hot bed of coals. If it adds to the smoke ring cool, but I have a water pan and use a wet mop, so I’m sure it is debatable.

Also, remember it is about your meat as well. Meat has moisture in it.

[joec]

My smoker does have a 1 gallon water pan also which I keep filled with water but sometimes mix it with other things like apple cider or wine.

[Love2"Q"]

So are you saying that overcooking led to all pink rib meat, or just that fall off the bone texture?
In post #11 you said, "not the smoke ring i was looking
for but they were super tasty". What kind of smoke ring did you get?
I'm asking because yesterday, my ribs came out pink thru and thru. And the texture was perfect, so I don't think they were overcooked. Real juicy and real pink (lol).
I'm wondering if I used too much smoke, or perhaps not foiling them left them exposed to the smoke longer before it burnt out. I know I made up larger packets of wood chips than I usually use.... I don't know why, but I'm thinking that was it? Since it was just me, I certainly didn't mind them being all pink looking and there wasn't anything wrong with the taste, but now I'm trying to figure out why the difference :huh: This is my first time with them having the all pink look.

over cooking was the culprit of the fall apart .. i like my ribs to have a little chewiness if that makes sense ..
and over smoking for the pinkness .. i noticed if i used apple it was not bitter but still very pink .. if i used hickory i got the bitterness ..
hope that helps ..

[Keltin]

i agree with most of what you said but this..lol

when you soak your wood you are not getting a clean burn. thus the white smoke or not so thin blue smoke. if you use chunks instead of chips, there will be no need to soak the wood.

the smoke rings also depends on the kind of wood you burning.. try cherry which is my favorite because it always gives me a very nice ring. i get consistent rings when using cherry wood. as well as the ring, cherry wood has an awesome flavor

http://www.barbecuen.com/faqs/woodchip.htm

Not so sure that type of wood matters. The smoke ring is just a chemical reaction between burning wood and water/moisture in the meat. I’m no chemist and haven’t analyzed ppm production of nitrogen dioxide amongst the various wood types.....but it seems to me combusting wood is combusting wood. I could be wrong.

I use chunk wood 99% of the time. The only time I use chips is if I run out of chunks. But, I soak my chunks.

Most purists would tell you that white smoke is produced by burning wood....any wood....chunks, chips, or logs. The white smoke is the myriad of chemical reactions when one fuel source (potential energy – wood) is converted to another (kinetic – fire). For true blue smoke, the purists will argue you have to burn your wood (chunks or logs) in a separate pit until they are coals. Then you put them in the cooker. When you watch the stack, you shouldn’t see much “smoke” at all.....just a thin blue wisp every now and then.

So throwing dry chunks on the coals is actually making white smoke. But that’s what I do....so hey.

Soaking the chunks slows down the rate of combustion. But a chunk of wood that is soaked and full of water will evaporate the water from the outside in. Thus the fire rests on the outer layer of the wood, evaporates the water there, begins to consume that layer of the wood, and as the heat makes it’s way inside, more water evaporates allowing another layer of wood to burn, and thus it works it’s way down to the core. Not to mention the escaping steam from the interior of the wood will retard the outer layer’s ability to ‘flame on”.

One thing to consider about foil packs of wood. First, a Smoke Ring and Smoke Flavor are two different things. You can have very smokey meat with almost no smoke ring. Now, a smoke ring is formed by burning wood,. The wood must combust. Wood in a foil pouch doesn’t have enough oxygen to combust, thus it just smolders. So using a foil pack can grant smokey flavor, but it can also retard the formation of a smoke ring if the wood doesn’t combust. But again, you can combat this with a rub that loads your meat with nitrates.

Check the pics in this thread. (http://www.netcookingtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5237) That was grilled in about 35-40 minutes over Kingsford coals only. No wood at all. But, it was a marinated piece of meat, and the marinade was loaded with tenderizers and nitrates. Notice I got a small smoke ring using only charcoal and the nitrates in the marinade. And it was a relatively short cook.

[BamsBBQ]

i agree, smoke ring and smoke taste are 2 different things..

you gotta try cherry wood at least once... i notice a big difference in the color of the outside of the meat and a deeper color red smoke ring.

when we are in comps, we always throw in some cherry splits, it seems to work

brisket with just oak and hickory
http://i39.tinypic.com/34j6ich.jpg

brisket with oak and cherry

http://i43.tinypic.com/25zs67t.jpg

[joec]

I use cherry wood, apple, hickory, oak and mesquite depending on the taste I'm going for. In the case of fish I like cedar and alder wood a little better.

[Keltin]

i agree, smoke ring and smoke taste are 2 different things..

you gotta try cherry wood at least once... i notice a big difference in the color of the outside of the meat and a deeper color red smoke ring.

when we are in comps, we always throw in some cherry splits, it seems to work

brisket with just oak and hickory
http://i39.tinypic.com/34j6ich.jpg

brisket with oak and cherry

http://i43.tinypic.com/25zs67t.jpg


Ok, I'm a believer! That is a beautiful smoke ring!!! :thumb: I'll have to try cherry. I've done Hickory, Mesquite, Apple, Oak, and Pecan. Cherry is now on the list!

[chowhound]

over cooking was the culprit of the fall apart .. i like my ribs to have a little chewiness if that makes sense ..
and over smoking for the pinkness .. i noticed if i used apple it was not bitter but still very pink .. if i used hickory i got the bitterness ..
hope that helps ..

Yes. Thanks.